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Less powder for larger bullets. As to energy it depends how you measure it. Kinetic Energy is highly dependent on velocity whereas momentum and penetration favors bullet weight.
 

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The 150gr has considerably more velocity than a 180gr 30/06 bullet. The 150gr actually has more energy than the 180gr load. Energy is not the be all end all with the 30/06. The 180 gr actually penetrates better than the 150gr bullet. Most of the time the 150gr soft point cannot handle the velocity of the 30/06 and fragments when striking a large bone in heavy game like elk. Another issue with the 150gr is it will ricochet off small limbs turning a great shot into "WTF happened?" Use the biggest bullet you can when hunting in heavy brush.

I get decent results with PPU (Prvi Partizan) ammo at hunting distances. PPU will not shoot sub MOA groups but it will shoot within a minute of a whitetail all day long. At less than $15 a box it does not hurt to have a few boxes of PPU set back for hard times. PPU is brass case ammo with an effective soft point bullet. Winchester Super X ammo is Sellers and Belliot or PPU stuffed in a Winchester box.

This just an average deal on PPU ammo. Save your money for a free shipping deal at a better price. http://sgammo.com/product/30-06/500-round-case-30-06-soft-point-180-grain-prvi-partizan-ammo-pp343
 

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Old Crow + 1. The only .30-06 I have is my father in law's old Remington 742 Woodsmaster. I shoot 150 to 168 gr. Garand bullets through it because it is old and the 180 gr. puts too much strain on it (at the advice of my gunsmith). My father in law, now deceased, loved the 180 gr. Federal stuff and killed many a deer with it over the years. He said it was just the best for brush popping the big white tails where we hunted. We hunted together 31 years and he was skunked only one season.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
The 150gr has considerably more velocity than a 180gr 30/06 bullet. The 150gr actually has more energy than the 180gr load. Energy is not the be all end all with the 30/06. The 180 gr actually penetrates better than the 150gr bullet. Most of the time the 150gr soft point cannot handle the velocity of the 30/06 and fragments when striking a large bone in heavy game like elk. Another issue with the 150gr is it will ricochet off small limbs turning a great shot into "WTF happened?" Use the biggest bullet you can when hunting in heavy brush.

I get decent results with PPU (Prvi Partizan) ammo at hunting distances. PPU will not shoot sub MOA groups but it will shoot within a minute of a whitetail all day long. At less than $15 a box it does not hurt to have a few boxes of PPU set back for hard times. PPU is brass case ammo with an effective soft point bullet. Winchester Super X ammo is Sellers and Belliot or PPU stuffed in a Winchester box.

This just an average deal on PPU ammo. Save your money for a free shipping deal at a better price. 500 round case - 30-06 Soft Point 180 grain Prvi Partizan Ammo PP343 | SGAmmo.com
In Michigan most of my shooting is short distance and brushy as you described so for my purposes 180gr is what I use. If I was out west shooting longer distances I would be looking at 150gr for a flatter shot on longer distances. This question came to me when I was buying a box of Remington Core-LokT 30-06 180gr at Walmart.

Is the 150gr flatter shooting with more distance or does Remington put a more powerful charge in the 180gr to make up for the heavier bullet?

I have always assumed that the only difference between the Remington (or any other brand) 30-06 180gr or 150gr was the weight of the bullet. But I'm curious that maybe they boost the charge to keep the heavy-er bullets trajectory closer to that of the lighter bullet.

Thanks for the tip on the PPU ammo but I don't need 500 shells. I will check around to see the prices on smaller amounts. So far I have been buying local and in cash so there is no record of what I have.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Less powder for larger bullets. As to energy it depends how you measure it. Kinetic Energy is highly dependent on velocity whereas momentum and penetration favors bullet weight.
It would surprise me that a smaller bullet would have a larger load. Unless each case is fully packed. But then again, doesn't some powders have more energy per space? Buying a professional built shell I would expect much thought in developing a recipe for each shell they produce. Are you sure there is less powder in shells with larger bullets?

As for Kinetic Energy I have spent many nights discussing this subject around the campfire, especially on bow hunting trips, with no one definitive answer. Heavier and slower arrow VS lighter faster arrow which penetrates better?
 

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It would surprise me that a smaller bullet would have a larger load. Unless each case is fully packed. But then again, doesn't some powders have more energy per space? Buying a professional built shell I would expect much thought in developing a recipe for each shell they produce. Are you sure there is less powder in shells with larger bullets?

As for Kinetic Energy I have spent many nights discussing this subject around the campfire, especially on bow hunting trips, with no one definitive answer. Heavier and slower arrow VS lighter faster arrow which penetrates better?
Please don't be surprised. Around any firearm. If you reload, you know this to be especially true.
Doubt you will buy something off the shelf for your gun that will damage it due to the load recipe.
However, if you reload, you will find there are numerous ways to get on that show "1000 ways to die."
First, understand excessive chamber pressures and how they affect the gun.
Understand how, the heavier a projectile is, the longer it takes to reach the end of the barrel. And the more pressure it takes to get said heavier projectile to the end of the barrel.
Understand that if you try to make that heavier bullet leave the barrel at the same FPS as the lighter projectile, excessive powder and increased pressures are required to accomplish this. Physics.
When using excessive powder, chamber pressures can occur that exceed the limitations of your firearm.
Just using the same charge weights between two different powders can cause bad things to happen.
When you exceed the pressure limitation of your firearm, bad things will indeed happen.

Pick up any reload manual and find any cartridge in the book. Doesn't matter which one.
Reference up any specific powder and then reference bullet weights.
You will find that in order to maintain speed between the two projectiles when using the same powder, the powder charge weight increases.
You will also note that the lighter projectiles are capable of far greater speeds than a heavier relative. Most of that speed tops out when you start using heavier projectiles.
This is all because of the chamber pressures developed.
And they don't just pack the cases with powder and see how fast it is. There's actually some ballistics engineering involved.
You will notice there are maximum charge weights indicated for each projectile weight and particular type of powder.
Each mfg has different powders with different burn rates. All of this is very important when selecting powders for any assembled firearm cartridge.
Rifles use a slower burning powder than do pistols.
Guarantee that if you put a fast burning pistol powder of the same charge weight in a 30-06 cartridge, your rifle will explode.
If you survive, other reloaders will scoff and chastise you.

Reloading is serious business. Please don't be surprised. Read and understand first.
And although I've been shooting and reloading for quite some time, don't take my word for it. Find a definitive source.

As far as the arrows go, find yourself some ballistic gel and put the discussion to rest. And you didn't say, what is heavier or faster?
Most arrows are only a couple grains per inch different. A 28" arrow at 8.9 grains per inch. Or a 28" arrow at 10.1 grains per inch.
If they're delivered from the same bow, you also only get a few feet per second difference at the bow.
Gotta admit, not a lot of difference. Until you get out to distance. Then the heavier arrow drops faster due to resistance and gravity.
I've shot a few thousand arrows.
I use an Carbon Express Maxima Red arrows that I have 75 grain brass inserts installed instead of the standard 10 grain aluminum inserts.
Instead of the 'dink' sound when the standard Carbon Express arrow hits the target, it sounds like I just smacked the target with a baseball bat.
And they bury a lot deeper in the target than it's lighter cousin. At any distance out to 70 yards.
So I base my use of the heavier arrow on that. Penetration and experience.
Arrow speed is not as important. It's accuracy and energy delivered to the target.
Doesn't take so much resistance to stop a light arrow. A plastic water bottle at 35 yards.
I've seen some lighter arrows strike the side of the whitetail at 40 yards and fall out. Never seen that with a heavier arrow.
I use the heavier arrow. I use a heavier #68 draw weight, so most end up being pass thru. Blood on the ground and meat in the freezer.
Just a suggestion, but reset your pins. Use the heavier weight-forward arrow. You will not be disappointed.
"You pays yur money and you takes yur chances." :cool:
 

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Does the 30-06 180gr contain more energy (powder) than a 30-06 150gr.
Well, to answer the question as asked...

No, the 180g does not contain more powder than the 150g.

For 150g bullets drop weight of IMR4064 (my plinker powder) is 47g to 51g. For 180g bullets, drop weight is 45.5g to 48.7g.

If you are referring to terminal energy, that too goes to the 150g. Assuming 200yd impact, the 150g has 1838ft-lb and the 180g has only 1636.

The 150g also has less bullet drop due to faster velocity.

However, the 180g will have less wind drift due to increased mass.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Well, to answer the question as asked...

No, the 180g does not contain more powder than the 150g.

For 150g bullets drop weight of IMR4064 (my plinker powder) is 47g to 51g. For 180g bullets, drop weight is 45.5g to 48.7g.

If you are referring to terminal energy, that too goes to the 150g. Assuming 200yd impact, the 150g has 1838ft-lb and the 180g has only 1636.

The 150g also has less bullet drop due to faster velocity.

However, the 180g will have less wind drift due to increased mass.
Well that is two agreeing that the heavier bullet has less powder. That is not what I expected. I assumed that both shells 180 & 150 would have the same amount of powder and if not, the heavier 180 would have more powder. This is the opposite of what I have assumed. I may rethink my choice and start using the 150gr shells.

More initial energy and flatter shooting. I assumed the 180 would have better penetration but if the 150 starts out with more energy it may penetrate as well or better that the 180.
 

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redmed, You have a lot to learn ...just like we all went through as we gained more experience with guns and ammo. Some things are counterintuitive ... and this is one of them.

Just some more facts that might help ..... muzzle energy is a convoluted formula that really doesn't express the capabilities of a cartridge .... good only for comparison between cartridges, not terminal performance. Ballisticians agree .... momentum is a much better measure of terminal performance and it is much simpler to compute. You merely multiply bullet weight (in pounds) by velocity (in fps). There are 7000 grains in a pound so for a 150gr bullet it would be .0214 lbs .... a 180gr bullet would be .0257 lbs. A factory 30-'06 cartridge with a 180gr bullet has a rated velocity of 2700 fps and a 150gr factory load is rated at 2910 fps. For a 180gr bullet (factory load) .0257x2700=69.4 lb-f/s momentum. For a 150gr bullet (factory load) .0214x2910=62.3 lb-f/s momentum. As you can see, even though a 150gr bullet is faster, it only produces about 90% as much momentum. The advantage of a 150gr bullet is ... because velocity is higher, it gets to the target faster and doesn't drop as much as a slower 180gr bullet. With a 100 yard sight-in, a 150gr bullet will drop 8.7" at 250 yards whereas a 180gr bullet will drop 9.8" .... about 1" more, hardly worth noting.

For a 30-'06 150gr bullet using standard IMR 4895 powder, the charge weight is 52.0grains for a factory velocity of 2910 fps. This load develops 49,883 psi chamber pressure.

For a 180gr bullet using standard IMR 4895 powder, the charge weight is 49.0 grains for a factory velocity of 2700 fps. This load develops 49,457 psi

If the same 52gr powder charge was used with a 180gr bullet, chamber pressure would be excessive ... likely high enough to damage a rifle.
 

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If you don't reload and have to buy ammo, kill 2 birds with one stone and try Winchester 150 grain silvertips. They are loaded hotter to begin with, and have excellent penetration with great brush cutting capabilities. Ive been using Winchester silver tips in both 30-06 and 270 for 25 years. They are an awesome hunting bullet. Ive taken at least 2 dozen Whitetails and a huge bull elk. All dropped dead in their tracks. I wouldn't give you 10 cents for a box of core lokts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
If the same 52gr powder charge was used with a 180gr bullet, chamber pressure would be excessive ... likely high enough to damage a rifle.
Is that because the heavier bullet is slower out the barrel is so more pressure is being built up?

Thanks for your explanation. The deeper I look into understanding ballistics the less I seem to understand.
 

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If you are using Winchester Super X ammo you are actually using Sellers and Belliot or Prvi Partisan. Winchester has been farming out Super X for a number of years. Winchester only loads their boutique ammo. If Winchester had someone in Serbia load their boutique ammo they would steal Winchesters proprietary secrets. Most of those countries do not recognize our patent law.

Yes, it takes more powder to load a 150 gr bullet. But the pressure is the same with a 180gr bullet or a 150 gr bullet. I am not sure why someone would say only use garrand ammo in a Remington woodsmaster. The sporting version of the 30/06 has always had a long throat. The 742 was first produced in 1960. As far as firearms go the 742 is a young one. There is no reason a rifle produced in 1960 would not be able to shoot any ammo manufactured in 2015.
 

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As several others have stated, a heavier bullet will use less powder than a lighter one. I can't load as much powder behind a 180 grain .308 as I can load behind a 150 grain one, assuming full power loads for both. Pressure would be excessive, and even if it wasn't, the longer bullet would protrude deeper into the case leaving less room for powder.
But one having a flatter trajectory and more down range energy than another ? It depends on more than starting velocity, also bullet shape and mass is important. A sleek bullet with a high ballistic coefficient will outperform one with a lower B.C., and a boattail will do better at longer range than a flat base one. Given equally streamlined bullets, a 208 grain Match will retain velocity and have more down range energy than an identical but lighter 168 grain Match bullet.
As an example, a 55 grain FMJ BT out of a 5.56mm starts out some 500 fps. faster than a 77 grain Sierra Matchking, but the heavier Matchking will arrive at 800 yards with double the energy, it does so by not shedding velocity so quickly. The 55 grain will be flatter shooting out to a few hundred yards, but then the heavier bullet will catch up and pass the lighter one.
So asking whether a 150 grain will shoot flatter or hit harder than a 180 grain, or vice versa, depends on distance involved as well as the shape of the bullets you are comparing. At shorter typical hunting distances, say 300 yards and under, it doesn't matter what you choose, as long as you hit where you're aiming and use a suitably constructed bullet.
 

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I shoot any Hornady 165 grain bullet in front of 56 grains of IMR4350.
Husquavarna .30-06 (bought 1974 in Berlin, Germany)
I stopped counting the deer, pigs, coyotes.
That load has taken five Wyoming Antelope.
1/2 MOA at 100 yards all day long.
 

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150 grain bullets are usually constructed for deer size game and 180 grain is often constructed for larger game like elk etc.
 

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I don't know the exact specs on Winchester ammo. All the stuff I use was bought back about 1990. I got several cases of 270 & 30-06 for about $8 a box. But even the new white box 150 grain silver tips for the 30-06 sound totally different than say, core lokt. When firing the different ammo together, you can easily hear the difference. And the accuracy and punch at long range is way better. Ive used the 150 grain in 270 win I have for elk and it drops them no problem. But Winchester does make a 130 grain ballistic silver tip for thick skinned game, which is for elk & moose. But it all goes back to hitting what your shooting at. It don't matter if you use a 300 ultra mag or 338 mag if you flinch so bad the only place you can hit the animal is in the rear end. ( Ive seen this a lot). As with any ammo or caliber, you have to be able to hit whatever you are hunting properly.

There is also the other side to the equation. The larger bullet also slows down faster than the light bullet, so at really long ranges, after it slows, it looses its energy and gets passed up by the lighter faster bullet. Larger , longer bullets float better in the air at long range, but a lighter bullet maintains its speed and thus retains its FPS. You can only throw a cement block so far and so fast. Speed really does kill.

But all that goes into optimum bullet coefficient. Which as far as I know, is 27 caliber.
 

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I have an older BAR in 30/06. I use 180gr ammo in it. I am not going to take many long shots. Usually I am in buckshot range of the deer. 180gr PPU soft point ammo slams deer. If I shoot the deer in the shoulder or neck it goes no where. Anchoring the deer is important to me. I like to gamble. I hunt on the edge of very thick cover. If I make a poor shot and the deer runs 50 yards in the cover there is a good chance I will not find the deer without a good dog. By the time I get on a blood trail I don't know if I am looking at deer blood or my own.
 

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The 150gr has considerably more velocity than a 180gr 30/06 bullet. The 150gr actually has more energy than the 180gr load. Energy is not the be all end all with the 30/06. The 180 gr actually penetrates better than the 150gr bullet. Most of the time the 150gr soft point cannot handle the velocity of the 30/06 and fragments when striking a large bone in heavy game like elk. Another issue with the 150gr is it will ricochet off small limbs turning a great shot into "WTF happened?" Use the biggest bullet you can when hunting in heavy brush.

I get decent results with PPU (Prvi Partizan) ammo at hunting distances. PPU will not shoot sub MOA groups but it will shoot within a minute of a whitetail all day long. At less than $15 a box it does not hurt to have a few boxes of PPU set back for hard times. PPU is brass case ammo with an effective soft point bullet. Winchester Super X ammo is Sellers and Belliot or PPU stuffed in a Winchester box.

This just an average deal on PPU ammo. Save your money for a free shipping deal at a better price. 500 round case - 30-06 Soft Point 180 grain Prvi Partizan Ammo PP343 | SGAmmo.com
I respectfully disagree about PPU ability to shoot accurately. Before my son started getting me to handload his rifle ammo for deer hunting he used the PPU .25-06 100gr. psp load. I can't speak for all PPU rifle ammo, but that .25-06 load would shoot 1/2"-5/8" groups all day long out of my sons rifle. Exceptional accuracy...and from a less expensive load to boot. That load shot more accurately than just about all the premium ammo he tried. I've since duplicated that load as far as velocity and accuracy are concerned with my handloads using a Hornady 100gr. psp bullet atop a healthy dose of IMR 4831.
 

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redmed, More ballistics 101 ..... you would be right if you wanted both a 150 and 180gr bullet to achieve the same muzzle velocity .... the 180gr bullet would take more powder. However the limiting factor is chamber pressure.

In the US, a shooting industry organization called Small Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI) sets the standards for all revolvers, pistols, rifles, and shotguns. The standards include bore diameter, bullet diameter, all cartridge measurements, all corresponding chamber measurements, and of course maximum chamber pressure. As long as ammo companies make their ammo to the same standards as gun manufactures make their guns .... no problems. If pressures are in excess of designs, bad things happen .... like the gun may blow up.

To get the best overall performance (accuracy and power), most factory ammo is loaded very close to the SAAMI max pressure rating ... but not over. This means a lighter bullet can be driven faster without exceeding the max chamber pressure (more powder) whereas a heavier bullet can not achieve the same velocity without exceeding chamber pressure specs and possibly blowing up.

When selecting the best bullet weight for your rifle, the very first thing to check is the rifling twist rate. Due to the versatility of a 30-'06, it is available in many different twist rates for bullets ranging from 100 grains to 220 grains. The Springfield 1903, 30-'06 rifle was designed around a 150gr FMJ-BT bullet fired at 2900 fps and has a 1:10 twist rate. This combination will keep a bullet stable well past 500 yards. For heavier bullets, a faster twist rate is required ... otherwise the bullet will not maintain stability. Likewise, if you shoot bullets lighter than 150gr, a slower twist rate is better. Most standard production 30-'06 rifles have a 1:10 twist rate but some have a 1:12 and some may be as fast as 1:8. Odds are ... if the bullet weight is matched to the rifling twist rate, accuracy will be much better and barrel life will be much longer. A 1:10 twist rate works best for 150~180 gr bullets. A 1:12 twist rate is better for 120~150gr bullets. A 220gr bullet requires a 1:8 twist rate. Why? Bullet spin is a product of muzzle velocity times twist rate so with heavier bullets that can't be driven as fast, a faster twist rate is needed. Additionally, heavier bullets are also longer, which again requires a faster twist rate for downrange stabilization.

Way more information than you asked for but it may help you decide what bullet weight is best for your rifle.
 
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