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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
has anyone used Matts Bullets before?

looking at 300 Grain Round Flat Hollow Points to reload.

need reloading data and some information.

gave me a link to use Hodgdon reloading data:

this is my hangup and question: Copied from Hodgdon

Case: Winchester Twist: 1:20" Primer: Remington 2 1/2, Large Pistol Barrel Length: 8.275" Trim Length: 1.280"'

I'm not using winchester cases, remington primers, my pistol barrel is 7 1/2, the bullet weight information is actually using info from a 300 grain Hornady XTP. he is running 890 FPS, and 1100 FPS on his bullets.

I would be using H110.

not worried about trim length because it matches the information already in my manual.

I'm just wondering using H110 and Matts Bullets, how many grains of powder would I use, the max load using the Hornady XTPs is 19.0 grains and thats pushing the bullet 1,325 FPS. the starting load is 18.0 grains and thats pushing the bullet at 1,266 FPS.

that is about 166 FPS faster that what he loaded the bullets, is that ok?

how much powder charge would bring it down to 1100 FPS?

how much powder charge would it take to bring it down to 890 FPS?

I'm going to email him and ask, but just wanted to see if anyone else is using these bullets, or had any information on reloading data.
 

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I've been through this before myself. "Where You gonna crimp the bullet"? is a viable question. The XTPs usually have data all there own and will have a different COL. Find a bullet similar and go from there. Don't load below start with H110. I haven't been reloading for as many years as some here, but I'm learning. If Matts Bullets don't provide data for their bullets, try contacting them. Most manufacturers are more than glad to help out.

I just visited Matts bullets and see that they are lead. I had never heard of them before. I would not use XTP data for them for sure. My Lymans 4th shows H110 data for the Lyman 429650 300gr flat nose as follows:
H110
Start-17.7 for 976 fps.
Max.- 18.5 for 1036 fps.
COL-1.700
It also designates the use of Magnum Primers.
Again...Don't try loading down with H110 to lower velocity. There are other powder choices that will do that.

I did check for type Os for this data.
 

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This is another series of questions that makes me fear for your life. You're either ignorant to, or apathetic to some VERY critical reloading knowledge and on your way to some VERY dangerous and irresponsible practices.

This is going to be long, but read my notes below carefully, and pay close attention - you are on a dangerous road. Here's the cliff's notes version of what's to follow, expounding upon the dangerous mistakes you're making in your assumptions - ALL OF THESE ARE BAD:

1) Reduced Loading with H110 without appropriately vetted data
2) Using jacketed bullet data for a lead bullet
3) Using Hornady XTP data for any other bullet
4) You're chasing velocities in a load book
5) You're arbitrarily chasing velocities from an expansion test

Copied from Hodgdon

Case: Winchester Twist: 1:20" Primer: Remington 2 1/2, Large Pistol Barrel Length: 8.275" Trim Length: 1.280"'

I'm not using winchester cases, remington primers, my pistol barrel is 7 1/2...
Case type doesn't really matter. Remington 2 1/2 Large Pistol Primers will be fine for 44mag loads with any powder also. Trim length should match up for spec, as long as you're not a LOT shorter than spec, and as long as you match your loads to the case capacity trim length is largely irrelevant.

Your barrel length won't matter either - you'll most likely find you end up ~30-50fps slower than the published data for the 8 3/8" barrel with your 7.5", but nothing else changes.

...the bullet weight information is actually using info from a 300 grain Hornady XTP.

...the max load using the Hornady XTPs is 19.0 grains and thats pushing the bullet 1,325 FPS. the starting load is 18.0 grains and thats pushing the bullet at 1,266 FPS.
YOU ABSOLUTELY CANNOT USE LOAD DATA FOR A HORNADY XTP 300GRN FOR ANY OTHER BULLET - ESPECIALLY NOT FOR A LEAD BULLET!!!!!!

The XTP is a unique bullet shape and construction, so its data cannot be transferred to other jacketed bullets, and certainly not to lead bullets. Lead bullets are an entirely different animal - no jacketed bullet data should ever be used for lead bullet loading without validating with known good lead data (basically meaning the jacketed bullet should never be used - only lead bullet data should be used).

You can only utilize load data for bullets of similar construction, hardness, and profile. Without this, you must do your load work up very cautiously.

Using XTP or other jacketed bullet data for a lead bullet could easily create an over pressure condition, and blow up your revolver. Using XTP data even for other jacketed bullets can be dangerous.

...he is running 890 FPS, and 1100 FPS on his bullets.

...that is about 166 FPS faster that what he loaded the bullets, is that ok?
You cannot compare jacketed bullet velocities with that of lead bullets, even for the same weight.

His velocities are irrelevant. He only used those two velocities as examples of how the bullets will perform for expansion and retention. He cites a low velocity 890fps created a large, properly expanded bullet (far left in picture), and a high velocity of 1100fps caused the bullet to shed its tip, but asserts that the base remained intact (second to left bullet in the picture). You are wrong to assume that he's suggesting shooters need to adhere to those velocities.

Personally, I wouldn't use his bullets for game hunting unless I knew I could count on longer shots. A 44mag case can push 1200fps+ with a 300grn pill, even with lead, whereas his picture demonstrates a bullet failure at 1100fps. Sure, the shank remained intact, but there are far better choices for a bullet that retains weight better at that velocity. As you noted, load data that puts you 150fps faster than his 1100 test would only cause the bullet to fail worse.

If you found 300grn SIMILAR LEAD BULLET data from a reputable source, you would at least have a usable starting load and a known maximum, but you should NOT simply try to match his published velocities without knowing the proper load data that went with it.

Trying to match his velocities without knowing the powder and charge weight is irresponsible and dangerous. There's also no reason to match those velocities at all - it was a simple expansion test, what will you gain by matching those particular velocities?

I would be using H110.

I'm just wondering using H110 and Matts Bullets, how many grains of powder would I use...

how much powder charge would bring it down to 1100 FPS?

how much powder charge would it take to bring it down to 890 FPS?
H110 CHARGES SHOULD NEVER BE REDUCED BELOW PUBLISHED STARTING LOADS AND SHOULD NEVER BE USED FOR REDUCED LOADS. H110 is a magnum powder with a high sensitivity to charge density. You should NEVER reduce loads below known good data. When loaded with insufficient charge density, H110 becomes erratic, and can produce squib loads.

H110 will not forgive you for reducing loads without respecting its need for a high charge density - it'll do what it does, which is become erratic, and potentially create a squib and blow up your revolver.

H110 isn't commonly used with lead, but for heavy bullets at full speed, it can be. H110 with plain base lead loads are infamous for leading, which I have experienced myself, BUT it may be more sensationalized as a problem online than it really is.

These considerations are largely irrelevant - you shouldn't be trying to match his reduced velocities from his expansion test bullets, so its wasted breath to talk about reducing charges with H110 to match it. The whole thing is just a bad idea. Loading reduced loads with the misguided goal of matching a slow impact test velocity could blow up your revolver.

and where would you crimp the bullet at?

...looking at [Matt's Bullets] 300 Grain Round Flat Hollow Points to reload.


The Matt's Bullets 300grn 44cal (pictured above) which you're considering has two crimp grooves. You crimp in the crimp grooves - pretty simple.

...what the COL should be also[?]
The COAL will be set by which crimp groove you choose. You don't HAVE to use the crimp grooves, but you'll basically have to damage the bullet to crimp anywhere else. For a Redhawk or an SBH, assuming your throats are properly sized, you'll likely be able to use the lower (nearest the base) crimp groove and still fit in the cylinder.

The reloading book's recommended Max COAL in a revolver is nearly irrelevant - you don't have to worry about feeding, so you have the luxury of going longer if you want. If the lower groove fits in your cylinder, use the lower groove, and seat the bullet long (ensuring you scale your H110 load appropriately for charge density).

You REALLY need a reloading mentor. Every day you're asking a new question with a new bad idea that's just as dangerous as the bad idea you had yesterday.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
copied and pasted from my response I got back from matts bullets:

H110 would be the wrong powder for this bullet. You are not supposed to
reduce H110 loads and if you shoot this bullet too fast it will lead your
bore. A little faster powder would be best.



I guess I will give up on 300 grain cast bullets, Hornady makes some 300 grain, cannot find any locally, but there is one place locally that sells the 265 grain Hornady Interlock bullets. I will probably just go with that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
thanks

You REALLY need a reloading mentor. Every day you're asking a new question with a new bad idea that's just as dangerous as the bad idea you had yesterday.

thats what you're here for! you can be my reloading mentor! you saved my bacon again!

Since we are on the subject, what happens if you trim a case short? or too short?
 

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Since we are on the subject, what happens if you trim a case short? or too short?
If it's just one or two cases, you throw them away. If it's a bunch, and it fits within spec, you can trim the entire batch down to that length.

The neck and mouth of the case hold the bullet. In revolver cartridges with a roll crimp, like your 44mag, if you trim a case too short, you won't get consistent crimp, if it's really too short, you might not get sufficient crimp on the bullet to hold.

Extra Note: On rimless pistol cartridges (380, 9mm para, 45acp, 40 S&W, 45acp, etc), the mouth also sets the headspace. If you trim too short, not only will you be lacking crimp strength (minor issue), but you'll be creating excessive headspace (major problem).

For revolver cartridges, and bottleneck rifle cartridges, in general, you should measure your brass, cull out any "too small, too small" cases, then trim to your shortest case length, and set your dies to crimp at that length.

For example, 44magnum: max case length is 1.285", where often 1.275" or 1.280" as a trim-to length. You buy 100 cases, 2 of them are shorter than 1.275", the rest are longer. You should throw away the 2 short cases (or do something else with them), then trim the rest to 1.275", and set your dies to crimp at that length.

As long as the case is shorter than maximum case length and the COAL is shorter than the cylinder depth + headspace (i.e. the case doesn't penetrate past the throat and the bullet doesn't stick out of the front of the cylinder) revolvers don't care about case length or COAL. Think about it - a short 44mag with a proper crimp is not so different than a 44 special cartridge with a proper crimp in the same chamber - it's just a little too short. It helps for a few reasons to be as close to max as possible, but it doesn't hurt to fall a few thou short. You can seat bullets long, or trim cases short, as long as they fit in the chamber, fit in the cylinder, and the case has enough bullet to grip, it'll all work.

For roll crimping into a cannelured bullet, or a lead bullet with a crimp groove, the loss of length can effect your COAL, but there's some flexibility even within that. Not a lot, but some.

So... What cases did you trim too short? What tool are you using?
 

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223/5.56 for that M&P, I'd assume?

How short did you trim them?

Micrometer equipment seem like they let you be more precise, but at the end of the day, threads are threads - it's not any more precise to use a micrometer trimmer than any other, it's just easier to make adjustments for set up.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
thousandths

223/5.56 for that M&P, I'd assume?

How short did you trim them?

Micrometer equipment seem like they let you be more precise, but at the end of the day, threads are threads - it's not any more precise to use a micrometer trimmer than any other, it's just easier to make adjustments for set up.

one to three thousandths too short.
 

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Best of luck Varminterror.
I guess I'm a glutton for punishment...

One to three thousandths - just trim the entire batch to that length - that's not "too short" it's just short. As long as you have enough case neck left, even a tenth might not be too short, (it is in 223/5.56).

EDIT: On second thought - aren't you a range brass guy? So you can replace your entire brass batch next week... Just scrap the shorts, start over.
 
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