Ruger Forum banner

1 - 20 of 25 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,523 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Has anyone else with a .920 barrel on a 10/22 found that high velocity ammo has tighter groups than sub-sonic at 100 yards...

I know the theory about sonic to sub-sonic transition and I am sure it is true generally...so no need to re-hash that...

I am also now convinced that a lot people assume that because they were told not use high velocity that they never tried and wouldn't really know...

So for those of you who have tried both in a bull barrel 10/22 and found the high velocity to be better at 100 yards...or better still 100 meters I would like to know...maybe I am the only one...somehow I doubt it...

Oh yes...forgot to mention I am especially interested in Aluminum barrel results...especially 16" aluminum...especially TacSol...

TIA...
ZG
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,523 Posts
Discussion Starter #2
Got to test some ammo yesterday...

First time I have tried these:

Super X 1300 "super speed" 40 gr plated rn
Super X 1435 "hyper speed" 40 gr plated rn
Super X 1650 "hyper speed" 26 gr tin hp

Mini-Mag "Velocitor" hyper-velocity 1435 plated hp

Also tested these to compare but have used these a lot before:

Mini-Mag 1260 high velocity 36 gr plated hp
Mini-Mag 1235 high velocity 40 gr plated rn
Peters (bulk...a Remington brand comparable to the Federal bulk) 1255 high velocity 40 gr solid lead rn

All my testing was at 100 yards...I was merely trying to find out which ones were consistently tighter and/or more reliable at that distance than others and was not doing super accurate testing so I don't have precise comparisons...

My general observations was that while the Super-x 1300 seemed okay for quality it was no better than the Peters for reliability or accuracy and maybe a little worse...a close call...only cost at least twice as much...I won't be buying anymore...

The Super-x 1600 again seemed okay for quality but reliability not so great...quite expensive...no more accurate than the 1300...what really surprised me was the lack of recoil...feels like CCI standard velocity...only lower quality, less reliable...accuracy roughly the same...I would use CCI standard velocity or Peters/Federal bulk or CCI Mini-mags or CCI Velocitors over this stuff any day...Velocitors are at least as accurate for me...price is similar...consistency and reliability way better...I will not waste money on these again...

The Super-X 1435 hyper speed won the day for accuracy...5 shot groups under 1" ...quality was horrible...several rounds were bent coming out of the box...had a few fail to feed...had a couple stick in the 10 round factory mag...had a few fail to go bang...had one what didn't go bang and wouldn't extract...price not bad for box of 100 compares to Mini-Mags...

All along until the super-x 1435 my best groups were 1.5-1.75" with the 40 gr rn...with the 36 gr hp a close second also in the 1.75-2.25" range...

Peters get out into the 3" plus range...as do the Velocitors...

The Super X 1300, 1650, in the 3.5-4" range...

CCI SV in the same 3-4" range...

Federal gold match SV in the 4-5" range...

What sucks for me is that the most accurate ammo I have tried is not legal for SB silhouette competition...and even if it was the penalty for misfires and jambs would probably not be worth it...I will probably buy another box of 100 of these just for comparisons and evaluation but don't plan on actually using them for anything of any importance...

Mini-Mag 40 gr round nose are STILL the most reliable and by far my favorite 22 ammo I have ever used and with only one exception the most accurate also...

Will definitely continue to have at least one box on hand for ever...

For the price the Peters have been pretty darned good...I give them a slight preference over the comparable Federals...a few fail to fires is to be expected with cheap ammo...accuracy at 50 yards is plenty good...reasonable at 100 yards IMO...will continue to buy a brick of these when low...

I know all guns/barrels "like" different stuff...just reporting what I got with my TacSol barrel on my 10/22 at 100 yards yesterday...

Sure would like to find something as accurate in my barrel at 100 yards as the Super-x 1435 only with good reliability and below hyper speed so I can use it in competition...
 

·
Retired Moderator & Gunsmith
Joined
·
16,077 Posts
ZommyGun,
I know the theory about sonic to sub-sonic transition and I am sure it is true generally...so no need to re-hash that...
Despite what you read on the Internet, this is not true.

Back many years ago when I was living in the Phoenix, AZ area, I became good friends with Gale McMillan. He was famous for making match grade barrels and was also a world class bench rest shooter. This man knew more about rifle barrels and ballistics than any person in the USA ... maybe the world ... and proved it by shooting amazing record breaking scores in competition. The supersonic to subsonic transition became the topic of discussion with many serious competitive shooters at the time and appeared to have the proof to back up the theory. At the distance where bullets dropped below the speed of sound, paper targets would indicate an "oval hole" instead of a "round hole" where the bullet had become unstable. In many shooter's opinion, this was proof enough to support the subsonic transition theory.

One day when Gale and I were having lunch, I asked him what he thought about the theory. A single word answer "bull****". He then proceeded to prove it. Turns out ... a combination of muzzle velocity and barrel twist rate generate the bullet's spin rate and affect down range stability of all bullets. At some point down range, spin rate decays from air friction to a point where bullets become unstable. With the typical bullets that bench rest shooter's use, the point of instability occurred at about the same distance as when the bullets went subsonic, therefore they concluded it must have been the subsonic transition. By increasing the velocity, the bullet would travel farther down range before it dropped to subsonic, further supporting the theory. Fact is, higher velocity also increased the bullet's spin rate, which was the real reason for instability. This theory grew like wild fire and since the Internet became popular, it has been accepted as fact, when indeed it has been proven not to be true (another one of those pesky gun myths).

To prove his point, Gale took me to his shop and showed me data that had been collected from testing a variety of different twist rates in his premium 223 Rem barrels. Using a 24" barrel with a conventional 1:12 twist rate, shooting a factory load 55gr bullet at 3240 fps, the bullet would chronograph subsonic at about 300 yards. At about the same distance, the bullet would also loose stability due to spin rate decay. Same exact ammo, same barrel length, ... the only thing different was a faster spin rate of 1:10. This time, the bullet chronographed the same velocity at 300 yards but maintained stability to 425 yards and still maintained sub-MOA groups. So .... the bullet still went subsonic at 300 yards but accuracy maintained for another 125 yards until the faster spin rate decayed. This proved subsonic transition had nothing to do with bullet instability, it was spin rate decay ... just a coincidence that many people still accept as fact.

Further, bullets used in 22 LR ammo have very poor aerodynamics. A CCI Min-Mag 40 gr solid point bullet has a Ballistic Coefficient (BC) of .136 ... pretty grim compared to a typical 7mm bullet with a BC of .500. Using factory data, a CCI Mini-Mag produces a muzzle velocity of 1255 fps from a 24" barrel. The speed of sound at sea level (68 deg F) is 1,126 ft/s. Because of the poor BC, the bullet drops from 1255 fps to 1126 fps at 44 yards. If the subsonic transition theory were true, any shot past 45 yards would turn to crap ... it doesn't.

Some other statistics of interest: by the time a CCI Mini-Max bullet reaches 100 yards, it has slowed down to 1017 fps and the time-to-target is .266 seconds.

A Remington hyper velocity "Viper" (32 gr HP) has a BC of .117, MV of 1410 fps, drops to SOS at 78 yards, drops to 1077 fps at 100 yds T-T-T=.246 sec.

A standard velocity CCI Green Tag (40 gr bullet) has a BC of 161, MV of 1138, drops to SOS at 8 yards, drops to 992 fps at 100 yds, T-T-T=.284 sec.

The higher the BC the better the bullet will resist air friction and the less winds will affect bullet drift. The higher the velocity, the less time it takes for the bullet to reach the target (T-T-T) so the less time it is exposed to air friction and wind. The heavier the bullet, the better it will maintain velocity down range. The closer the bullet is to optimum weight for the rifling twist rate, the better it will stabilize. Most 22 LR barrels have a 1:16 twist rate that optimizes with a 40 gr bullet.

So the best combination of the highest velocity (least important), best bullet weight-to-twist rate match, and highest BC will statistically make the best long range cartridge. One additional very important factor is the overall quality of the cartridge ... most uniform powder charges, most uniform bullet weights, most uniform crimps, etc. If these factors vary, so will MV, which will cause groups to open. Of the few cartridges I listed, the CCI Mini-Mag has a good combination and is very uniform quality. Expensive match grade cartridges are rated at standard velocity (1140 fps) and tend to be very accurate, despite a lower MV .... because the BC and overall quality is much higher in all respects.

I have a 20" bull Green Mountain bull barrel on my 10/22 build. It likes CCI Mini-Mags better than other brands too, however I never tested it with any hyper velocity ammo. I have tested it with Wolff Target Match ammo ($7.99/box of 50) and found accuracy was better than CCI Mini-Mags but not enough better to warrant the cost.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,523 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
GREAT story and GREAT information...

I kind of suspected that the transition theory might be mostly a bunk story or if you prefer GunsMythology... :D:D:D

I haven't had the chance to try much match ammo...just the CCI SV (not sure about green tag...) and Federal Gold Match...

The Gold Match is 40 lrn...horrible for me...

I am under the impression that these 10/22 barrels are 1:16...at least mine anyway...I will have double check that later...

And of course mine is only 16"...

I can only assume that the Aluminum is more sensitive to vibration than steel...

I have the aluminum out of necessity...changing barrels is not an option for me at this point...

The Super X hyper 1435 have a strange crease/crimp in the middle of the case...I will post a picture later...none of the others I have seen are like that...and the quality seemed really bad as several of them were f/d up right out of the box...bent...no point in even trying to use them...

Shot way better groups with those than any other...cost about the same as mini mags...

Bad news for me is hyper is not allowed in SBS...

If you get a chance sometime try a pack and see what you think...

I think they were about $6.50 for a box of 100...

One thing is for sure... my gun is going to have to do better than 1.75" groups at 100M from bench rest if I am going to use it for SBS...

The better bolt action guns with all the right stuff and match ammo seem to all be under 1" groups and better...

Thanks again for the awesome insight...

Later,
ZG
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,523 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
This is the Super X 1435fps 40gr cphp...notice the crimp in the middle of the case...odd...first one I have seen like that...

These shot groups under 1" from my gun at 100 yards...

I also tried the CCI Velocitor 1435fps and they were not as good as the mini-mags...I am going to try them again just to make sure nothing else was going on...

I was confused about one thing in my earlier post...it was the Super X 1650fps bullets that were messed up...some of them...they were not accurate... 26gr bullets...based on the above information it is easy to see why...



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I was mostly looking for a trend when I tested the bullets I listed above...so I am not going to assume too much based on that one test...

Where do you get the bullet coefficient data from...???
 

·
Retired Moderator & Gunsmith
Joined
·
16,077 Posts
ZommyGun, Thanks for addressing twist rate .... I made a mistake in my above post and corrected it ... most 22 LRs have a 1:16 twist rate ... not a 1:12 as I had stated. This is important because many aftermarket barrels are available with faster twist rates, which makes them a better match for heavier bullets. You might want to check yours ... my Green Mountain is 1:16 and favors 40 gr bullets. 22s are the same as any high power rifle where the faster the twist rate the more it prefers heavier bullets. Aguila makes 50 gr LRNs that work well with faster twist rates.

Just some more comments about 22 ammo. Quality trumps velocity every time. I have chronographed several brands of match grade ammo and found the max velocity spreads in a 10 round sample are very tight ... typically well under 25 fps (fastest minus slowest) and with Wolf Match Target 22 LRs (Russian company, made in Germany, with Finland Vihtavuori powder) 10~12 fps max spread is normal. I have also pulled bullets and weighed 10 random samples ... all were exactly 40 grains.

Seems most manufacturers make several different grades of 22s, ranging from the cheaper bulk packs, which are the lowest in quality, to premium grades. Without fail, the premium grade ammo has more uniform bullet weights, powder charges, and chronograph much tighter for max spreads. As an example ... CCI Mini-Mags (one of my favorites) will typically have max spreads under 25 fps whereas CCI Blazers are 40~50 fps max spread. At closer distances this is no big deal but at 75~100 yards, the slightest imperfections will show up. Federal Bulk pack 32 gr HPs are an exception. For cheap ammo, it chronos just as tight as most premium grades in other brands. The absolute worst I have ever tested is Remington bulk pack ("REM" headstamp not "U" headstamp). I have documented well over 100 fps max spreads ... in fact it was so bad I lost faith in my chronograph and had to test another brand to confirm my chrono wasn't playing tricks on me. You can actually hear the difference in the report from shot to shot.

What does max velocity spread have to do with accuracy? At distances up to 50 yards .. probably not enough to notice. At extended distances ... here's what happens when max spreads are too wide .... higher velocity bullets don't drop as much as lower velocities so that will result in vertical stringing. Another strange thing happens with the rifling that will actually torque the bullet to the side a little more or less depending on velocity. So as you can see, a change in velocity from round to round will make the bullets scatter vertically and horizontally .... in other words, the group will open up. Chronographs are your friends!

When I bought my Green Mountain barrel, I found it was a very fussy feeder. It was not uncommon for the bolt to fail to go to full battery with CCI Mini-Mags, yet Wolf Target Match ammo never failed to chamber properly. The tight Bentz chamber was the problem. I removed the barrel from my 10/22 and tested several cartridges. About 20 out of a box of 100 CCIs would not chamber without force. Wolf cartridges would drop in without a problem. It's a known fact that a tight Bentz chamber will pick up considerably more accuracy than the loose chambers found in standard factory barrels so there's no way I wanted to open it up. Instead, I got this bright idea and made a "bullet die". I sawed off a 2" section of an old 22 LR barrel then put it in the lathe and machined the hole from both ends. One end is a "go-no go" ... if the cartridge "fully chambers", it will fit in the Bentz chamber. The other end of the die (looks like a tube) is tighter so I can press the cartridge in by hand and squeeze the bullet diameter down a tad until it fits in the other end of the die. So ... off to the range. With the CCIs that either fit naturally or were sized to fit, at 75 yards my groups were tighter than with unaltered CCI Mini-Mags. This made me smile because I didn't have a single full battery failure .... and accuracy was almost as good as Wolf Target Match.

Later I tested other brands and found definite quality issues. None of the Remington bulk pack cartridges would fit in the go-no go die ... all had "fat" bullets. I saved this ammo for my Ruger Single-Sixes that prefer fatter bullets. Federal bulk packs were much like the CCIs ... about 1 out of 10 were too fat. What does this have to do with accuracy? Can't say 100% for sure but my theory is ... when bullets feed and have to be forced into the chamber, some lead shaves off. This changes the weight of the bullet plus the shavings make the bullet something less than perfectly round. Give it a try ... pull your barrel and see how your cartridges fit. If you have to pound them into the chamber, chances are they will not be as accurate as when they will drop in the chamber unassisted.

I have a software program called "Ballistic Explorer". It has a factory ammo data base that includes many different 22 LR cartridges and a zillion centerfire cartridges. Each cartridge in the data base includes the shape, weight, style, material, and ballistic coefficient of the bullets. It also includes the factory load number and velocity (rated from an "X" length barrel).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,523 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Extremely helpful to say the least...very interesting die you made...

What do you think of that super x 1435...???
 

·
Retired Moderator & Gunsmith
Joined
·
16,077 Posts
ZommyGun, I have never fired Super X 1435s in my 10/22 so I can't comment on their performance. With a few exceptions, I generally stay with normal High Velocity ammo (1255 fps, 40 gr). It is plenty accurate for me because I seldom shoot a distances more than 75 yards.

I own two bolt action target rifles ... one is a Savage MK III BVTS with a 21" barrel and the other is a CZ 452-E2 with a 25" barrel. When I want to shoot at 100 yards, either of these guns will drill a 1" bullseye @ 100 yards with Wolf Target Match ammo. They also do quite well with CCI Mini-Mags. Using the same ammo, the CZ will chronograph about 100 fps faster than the Savage and about 150 fps faster than my 10/22 build with a 20" barrel. The CZ will also maintain tighter groups at any distance. I've only had the Savage for about a year and really haven't done much testing with different ammo.

Turns out, any blow back semi-auto will rob a little velocity (typically 50 fps) as will a shorter barrel. Although many people will argue, I have proven (at least to myself) the gain in velocity with the 25" CZ coupled with the tight unvented bolt action will run circles around any 10/22 for accuracy. This would be my "go to" gun if I were competing at long range.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,523 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Do you have the BC for that bullet or a link to where I can look it up...???

What do you think about the crimp in the middle of the case...have you seen that before...do you think it's a factor in why they are doing so much better than mini-mags for me right now at 100 yards...

I did a quick test on 5 mini-mags...40gr

2 went it on their own...two went in most of the way...1 went it half way at most...

I did one of the Super-x and it fell in/out easier than any of the CCI...

Will get around to trying a larger sample and variety and get back with you on it...

I am sure that TacSol barrel is 1:16...and the ONLY ammo they say DON'T use is Stingers...which I assume is due to Bentz chambering...

They only recommend one type ammo...CCI mini-mags...for what I think are obvious reasons...

Stingers may not be the only longer case hyper round but the other hyper ammo I have/used are CCI velocitors, and two hyper Super-x...none of them have the longer case like the Stingers...

Later,
ZG
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,338 Posts
Just some more comments about 22 ammo. Quality trumps velocity every time. Seems most manufacturers make several different grades of 22s, ranging from the cheaper bulk packs, which are the lowest in quality, to premium grades. Without fail, the premium grade ammo has more uniform bullet weights, powder charges, and chronograph much tighter for max spreads.

I have documented well over 100 fps max spreads .
You can actually hear the difference in the report from shot to shot.

When I bought my Green Mountain barrel, I found it was a very fussy feeder. The tight Bentz chamber was the problem.

Later I tested other brands and found definite quality issues. None of the Remington bulk pack cartridges would fit in the go-no go die ...
This entire thread was interesting, and I have a couple questions and comments.

Part 1

As .22LR supplies have become harder to find, I broke down earlier this year and picked up 2K of the Remington Bulk Pak, Thunderbolt. When I took it to the range, with a very accurate M77/22 VBZ scoped with a decent Nikon 2X-7X scope, I was getting groups in the 3"/10 shots range from a bench at 50yds. I also had some Yellow jacket stuff, that had shot reasonably well in the past, and it was shooting about twice as good @ 1.5"/10. I wondered if my rifle had finally accumulated enough bullet lube, plating, and fouling to need a good cleaning. So I took it home and pulled a half dz cotton patches with Hoppe's through the tube, and a couple more dry ones, and went back to the range. Not a bit of difference. Pulling out a box of Winchester Super X HS, I immediately put together 2-10 shot groups that went about 0.75".

I felt better, as I really like the VBZ.

Then I decided to do some home QC. First I sorted the ammo by rim thickness into 6 different groups with my Neil Jones Custom Products guage. Thickness variation used the entire range the guage was made for, including "too thick to close the guage. Then I sorted 20 rounds from each size by weight. Returning to the range about a week later, on a calm day, I found the thickest rims to be the worst for accuracy in all of my rimfires, and the least likely to cycle my P22, or 10/22. When I compared the weighed rounds to random rounds for each thickness by group size, no surprise, the weighed set did about 1/2" better per group. Rounds too thick in the rim to enter the guage produced 5 shot groups in excess of 4". I only had a dz of these in 500rds. The weighed rounds with the thinnest rims produced 10 shot groups 0.38"-0.45", random weight rounds from the same group were 0.60"-0.62". Group size and rim thickness produce accuracy linear with rim thickness. In a box of bulk Thunderbolt you get about 100rds that will produce groups that will net head shots on squirrels at 50yds. The rest is for shooting clay birds in a gravel pit at 15 yds with a Single Six. Auto function in my P22 is so poor I wouldn't let an inexperienced shooter near it for fear of them shooting themselves clearing jams.

Power difference is very audible from shot as the rim size goes up/down.
Sorted Yellow jacket responded in a similar way, but each rim thickness has a different point of impact. ??

I later repeated the exercise with Federal and Winchester bulk. It's better stuff all around. Remington Golden Bullet good stuff is actually quite good. In my rifles (not really good enough to see a lot of difference with my old guy eyes and handgun sights), Winchester HS/HSHP shoots the very best, and has over the several years I've had it.

My thought "you get what you pay for" is particularly true for rimfire fodder.

Part 2

Do all of the 0.929 barrels have the Bentz chamber? I'm looking for a 0.920 barrel, but I don't want to sacrifice function.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,523 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
I did a quick run thru of all the ammo I had for a sample of 5 rounds on the chambering test...

CCI Mini-mags in both 40 grn rn and 36gr hp...about the same...2 slip in...two go most of way in...1 goes half way in...

CCI quiet... about the same only 3 go all the way...two go most way...

CCI SV...all slip in easily....

CCI Velocitor...missed those...will find them and test them later

Super X 1300 and 1435...all slip in easily...

Peters and Federal bulk HV...all slip in easily...

Federal gold match...similar to mini-mags...

There is no correlation I can see at this time as the the most accurate are the super x 1435...followed by mini-mags...with all the other high and hyper behind the minis...followed by CCI SV...with Quiet and Gold being the two worst...I never tried the quiet at 100 yards and can only speculate they would be much worse than the Gold match...

I will try sorting out the mini-mags according the chamber fitment and see if I can detect any difference...

My testing still leaves a lot to be desired so I am still in the realm of looking for big differences not small ones...it takes time...I'll get there eventually... :D

BTW...the Peters...which for the price are surprisingly close in accuracy to the minis...also have a little crimp in the middle of the case...it's much smaller than the Super X crimp and I never noticed it before...none of the others have it...

I think I pay $18/500 for the Peters...I think as you pointed out earlier the reason why they will have say 3 out of 5 tight and two fliers goes to the lower consistency of the loads...and the reason why the ones that have good loads are tight is due to the lubed lead 40gr bullet...combined with the higher velocity to get out farther...and I suppose the fact that they all seem to slip in easily may be a contributing factor...

So I guess there is no way to ever be able sort out the light loads to get the consistent velocity needed to ever get all 5 rounds inside a 1" group at 100meters...too bad...

I just wish I could use the super x 1435 for SBS...that would negate the need for continuing to screw around with ammo...at least that is what I think at this time...I could be wrong...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,523 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Do all of the 0.929 barrels have the Bentz chamber? I'm looking for a 0.920 barrel, but I don't want to sacrifice function.
No...you can get a GM barrel that is chambered and rifled specifically for a stinger...the stinger round has a longer case and lighter bullet...I have no idea how good they are...and it doesn't appeal to me anyway...

I could be wrong...but I think you are getting the impression that Bentz chamber is a problem...and I don't think it is...

Now the TacSol barrel doesn't specifically say it's a bentz...but I THINK it is...or very close to it...

I wouldn't advise anyone wanting supreme accuracy...especially at long range...to get a TacSol barrel...but with regard to functionality...mine cycles all the above ammo just fine...

And if you look at what I am finding on what fits and what is tight and what is accurate you will see that a wide range of ammo fits easily...and the two best accuracy and functionality don't fit the same...the mini-mags are the tightest of the bunch and cycle great...

I am absolutely not an expert on barrels...or ammo...I got the TacSol because it is the shortest legally and exactly one half of the factory barrel...my primary concern is/was weight...now I just want to get the most out of what I have...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,523 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Today I picked up a 500 pack of Blazer...40gr lrd HV...$20

100pk of Federal Game Shock... 40 cprn HV... $7.50

Another 100pk of Super X 1435 since they are the best in my gun to date...10.50...that is way more expensive than I thought they were...still not outrageous price all things considered...

Did the chambering test on the new ammo...5 rounds each...

Super-x...same as other box...all drop in...

Federal Game 4 out of 5 drop in...5th one almost all the way...very close...

Blazer...about the same as all the other CCI...3 dropped in...two went most of the way...

When I say most of the way I mean more than half but not more than 3/4...almost all the way is more like 7/8...

So lowegan...

Do you think it will pay off to sort whatever ammo into sized groups...say two groups for each brand...those that drop in...and those that don't...???

That would be about the best I can do for now...

Also...they had Vipers for $35/500pk...definitely the lowest price on hyper velocity I have seen...

I was tempted to get some...sure would like to try a 100pk first to see how they do...
 

·
Retired Moderator & Gunsmith
Joined
·
16,077 Posts
When you get the ammo issues sorted out ... let me know. I've been on a 22 LR "accuracy quest" for a couple dozen years and when I think I'm making progress, something always changes. As an example ... I bought a brick of Winchester Super X high velocity about 5 years ago. These were the most accurate 22s I had ever tested. When they were gone, I bought another brick (different lot number) only to find accuracy was mediocre. I have finally setteled on three brands .... CCI Mini-Mags for overall good performance, Federal Bulkpack for plinker loads, and Wolf Target Match for serious accuracy. I use the same ammo in my target pistols for the same reasons. If I were into competition shooting, I would probably stay with Wolf ... always excellent but also way more expensive.

ZommyGun, It's worth a try .... if cartridges have to struggle to chamber, no doubt the bullets are getting distorted. Only a good range test will prove or disprove how much it affects accuracy ... then the next lot number of the same brand may be different. I know for sure my little 22 LR die helps ... no more feeding problems and slightly tighter groups.

Here's a photo of my 22 LR die. The right end is the Go-No go and the left end is the bullet sizer. The punch is used to push cartridges out after they get sized.
 

·
Retired Moderator & Gunsmith
Joined
·
16,077 Posts
TMan51, I have many 22 LR rifles and pistols to compare ... the Bentz chamber in my 10/22 GM barrel is considerably tighter than all other semi-autos except my S&W Mod 41. Nearly all ammo will cycle through my other 10/22s and my MK III pistols but only match grade 22s will cycle perfectly in my Mod 41 and GM barreled without being "sized". Funny ... the side of my GM barrel is stamped "WARNING - Unfired ammo may not eject". Obviously Green Mountain is aware of the cycling issues or they would not have this warning.

Ruger's standard factory barrels have very loose chambers so they tend to be garbage eaters and will cycle with just about any ammo. The down side of a loose chamber is accuracy. Some gunsmiths cut the rear of the factory barrel off then rechamber with a Bentz reamer. Of course they also have to cut a new extractor slot and a new "V" block slot. Once this has been done, accuracy comes close to match grade.

So ... Yes, a Bentz chamber may cause feeding problems ... especially with cheap grade ammo. To me, it seems silly to spend big bucks on a barrel for better accuracy and not get a Bentz chamber. If you want the barrel to feed garbage ammo, it's best to leave the factory barrel on and forfeit some accuracy.

Do all .920' barrels have Bentz chambers? No, but many do. Some have "tighter than Ruger but looser than Bentz" chambers. Typically if the chamber isn't mentioned in the mfg specifications, it does not have a Bentz chamber.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,338 Posts
Well, Green Mountain finally had inventory on a 16.5" Fluted Blue barrel, so I ordered one up. I'll give up some speed, no doubt, but looking at reviews and tracking posts, it seemed a good balance of weight, accuracy, and price. It'll go into a Houge over-molded stock, the receiver is the silver finish, and the scope, a Nikon 2X-7X camo in Leupold rings should look cool and distinctive in the OD Hogue.

I'm hoping it shoots as well as my 77/22VBZ, as that will actually shoot into an inch at 100yds from a rest, with sorted ammo of decent quality. As Iowegen suggests, lot to lot variation is often an issue, but Federal HS, and Winchester Super X are usually a pretty good bet. The couple boxes of match ammo I've tried, not the mega-dollar stuff, have been mediocre.

One thought though. When the VBZ came home, it had several distinct rough spots when I was cleaning out the barrel, something I typically do with any brand new rifle. Several passes with a tight patch and JB cured most of that, and the rifle has been a tack driver since the first trip to the range. Because I can't leave a barrel fouled, I draw a couple patches through it using a section of 150lb test monofilament line every few trips.

Thanks for the inspiration,
 

·
Retired Moderator & Gunsmith
Joined
·
16,077 Posts
TMan51, You're going to find your Green Mountain barrel will have a highly polished bore, unlike your Ruger 77/22. With a little powder solvent, your cleaning technique will work perfect. I never use a bore brush on polished bore ... it totally defeats the purpose. I would expect match grade ammo will work far better in the GM barrel than in your Ruger barrel. However due to the velocity loss and the vented action, I doubt if your 10/22 will get as good of accuracy at 100 yds as your 77/22.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,523 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
When you get the ammo issues sorted out ... let me know. I've been on a 22 LR "accuracy quest" for a couple dozen years and when I think I'm making progress, something always changes. As an example ... I bought a brick of Winchester Super X high velocity about 5 years ago. These were the most accurate 22s I had ever tested. When they were gone, I bought another brick (different lot number) only to find accuracy was mediocre. I have finally setteled on three brands .... CCI Mini-Mags for overall good performance, Federal Bulkpack for plinker loads, and Wolf Target Match for serious accuracy. I use the same ammo in my target pistols for the same reasons. If I were into competition shooting, I would probably stay with Wolf ... always excellent but also way more expensive.

ZommyGun, It's worth a try .... if cartridges have to struggle to chamber, no doubt the bullets are getting distorted. Only a good range test will prove or disprove how much it affects accuracy ... then the next lot number of the same brand may be different. I know for sure my little 22 LR die helps ... no more feeding problems and slightly tighter groups.

Here's a photo of my 22 LR die. The right end is the Go-No go and the left end is the bullet sizer. The punch is used to push cartridges out after they get sized.

LMAO... yeah... as soon as the teacher finds out the answers are on the net he changes the questions... :D

It's not FAIR... lol...

I was going to ask you today what length of barrel I would need to make a die like yours...was hoping it would be less than or equal to 2"...have an 18" factory barrel that I would not mind cutting to 16" but would not want to render useless forever under SBR...

So that part has been answered...

Next part is what do I need to do the chambering...and how easy or more to the point how much shop time would a gun smith need to make one for me if I gave him the barrel...I could have it cut...crowned for a usable 16" barrel and have him make the die out of the cut-off piece...

YES/NO...maybe...???

When I see some wolf I am going to buy it and try it...

For now I am going thru the cheaper/easier hv ammo hoping for a winner...once that is done I will go back to SV and see what I can accomplish with it...

I don't expect the 60gr bullets to work for me but I will try those too just in case I get lucky...

That will all take a while...planning ahead is required tho... :D

I will let you know what happens...

Later,
ZG

PS...based on your lot to lot variation comments I think I will invest in a 500pk of Vipers even tho they are not allowed for SBS...they are relatively low cost and unless they are a disaster they will get used...and if they are real, real accurate 500 won't be near enough... :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,338 Posts
However due to the velocity loss and the vented action, I doubt if your 10/22 will get as good of accuracy at 100 yds as your 77/22.
Actually, I wouldn't bet a dime you're wrong.

I'm really looking forward to playing with some accuracy factors and the new barrel, but my VBZ has proven very accurate with decent ammo.

I'll cry if it dowsn't shoot better than my stock barrel, but that is a bad bet too. ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,523 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
I am sure it will be more accurate than the factory barrel and more accurate than mine...

I got mine because of the weight...it weighs only 14oz...factory barrel weighs 28oz...a steel bull barrel has to weigh a lot more...

The TacSol barrel is definitely chambered tighter than factory...that is for certain...

Additionally...I was not interested in having to have match ammo or be concerned about cycling...however...I have run into bulk ammo now that doesn't feed right...Blazer...not sure why...

I am extremely interested in finding the most accurate ammo for the barrel I have at 100m that is below hyper speed...

Still... :)

The Federal Game Shock was $7.50 for 100pk which is in the same price range as mini-mags...shot some at 100m and they seem pretty good...quality was good...didn't get the chance to do a good job of bench rest testing at a paper target but I think they are better than mini-mags in my barrel...possibly just as good as the super x 1435fps that is the most accurate so far but not allowed in SBS match...

If not for the SBS I really don't need to go out past 60 yards to have fun with it so therefore I wouldn't need the more expensive super x for anything anyway...

This whole ammo search thing is starting to piss me off... :mad::mad::mad:
 
1 - 20 of 25 Posts
Top