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A Round in the Chamber - Other Considerations

3K views 11 replies 9 participants last post by  BeAnalog 
#1 ·
Hey all, despite the title, this is not intended to be a discussion about should you or shouldn't you.
(you should, but that's not my point)
I just read an article by Massad Ayoob on the subject and he brought up points that I had NEVER heard voiced before. I won't go over the whole article, though here is the <LINK>, just a couple of details that I had never heard in the debate...

1. Even if you completely disregard the extra time and complexity of racking the slide (which he did not), not needing to rack means your support hand is free to establish a proper firing grip, rather than busy racking in a round. (I've never seen this rather significant detail brought up when folks debate this subject).

2. Everyone likes to bring up 'Israeli Carry' when defending the merits of carrying on an empty chamber, the implication being that the Israeli military came to that standard based on tactical experience. Ayoob explains that in 1949, when that standard was established "...they had a low training budget, and had to work with a mishmash of whatever handguns they could get. The safeties of the American 1911 and the Belgian Browning worked opposite from those on the German Walther and all were different from the German Luger, and none of those guns at that time were drop-safe with a round in the chamber. It was the safest way to go. " So it does not really relate to a discussion of modern concealed carry.


Just figured folks might be interested.
 
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#2 ·
It is interesting IMHO.
Very good write up and this article has made it's way into conversations at our club and range too. I found it very informative. Personally I have practiced quite a bit drawing and racking and still it takes me some time to get to first shot. In a emergency with the stress and adrenaline of a surprise attack that may be costly to have to rack. With modern firearms I feel confident enough to carry with one in the chamber. Lately I have started to carry auto instead of my revolvers so this is a good subject to reflect on.
*New shooters and some shooters are reluctant to carry with one in the chamber but I feel we should practice practice and practice more to get confident in a firearm you choose to carry. Times are dicey at best and time racking is time lost. Some attacks happen so fast that it does matter how you carry, saftey on/off, one in the chamber or not and location you carry in.
*The best thing I have done in my older years was to get more training and get out and train/practice with what I have.
 
#3 ·
Forgot to mention.
As stated in the article and as others here have mentioned before every police department in the United States has its officers carry their service pistols with a round in the chamber. There are good reasons for this. One of them is your life and the life of your loved ones may depend on it. Again I know many that do not and I always recommend they consider more practice and time spent with their sidearm.
 
#4 ·
If you have ever had the first round jam when you release the slide, you understand the importance of carrying with a round in the chamber. At least you have one shot. That may be all you need. But if the gun jams while trying to chamber that first round in a life or death situation, you may not get even one round off.
 
#5 · (Edited)
I have never even heard of "Israeli Carry". In the military where in some situations we did not have a round in the chamber, it was not a safety technique, it was the chain of command fearing that their career would be over in the blink of an eye if someone had a ND. There is no tactical value in it... just a CYA move. But even in the civilian world that trained complacency exists. I saw this very informative video of a store owner and his son being robbed at gun point by multiple assailants and the father saw his chance to pull his gun and pull the trigger and then nothing happened. Then the robber shot him and his son had to watch him die.

If you can't carry a firearm with a round in the chamber, you have a problem and you should actually put effort, maybe a lot of effort into curing yourself of that problem rather than come up with systems designed to counter your incompetence or perceived incompetence and fears. "Since I don't trust myself or I might fire off a round accidentally in an emergency situation, I'm not going to have a round in the chamber."... really? How does not having a round in the chamber outweigh a scenario where you might have to draw with your non dominant hand in an awkward and time consuming draw reaching over, maybe yanking more than a few time to get the gun out, putting the gun down to reposition your grip (or whatever technique you use to get the gun properly orientated) and then you're going to rack the slide (with whatever technique you use) and then work the safety if you have one? I get on the ground all the time and practice that draw... many times I will stick my hands in a muddy puddle or use a water bottle to make my own mud. Those are the obstacles you should try to overcome rather than play mind games on yourself by not having a round in the chamber.

Having said that, if you don't feel safe with a round in the chamber, by all means, don't have a round in the chamber. lol Seriously though, regarding CCW, people have a way of overcomplicating things and not putting the work in to be more proficient. Someone I know literally did not have a round in the first chamber of his ccw 5 shot revolver... so he would have to pull the trigger twice. I say put the time into to do things right.

Edit:
I tried to find the video I saw a while back but couldn't find it, but I did find an even worse video where the store owner and his son are killed.

 
#6 ·
Hey all, despite the title, this is not intended to be a discussion about should you or shouldn't you.


2. Everyone likes to bring up 'Israeli Carry' when defending the merits of carrying on an empty chamber, the implication being that the Israeli military came to that standard based on tactical experience. Ayoob explains that in 1949, when that standard was established "...they had a low training budget, and had to work with a mishmash of whatever handguns they could get. The safeties of the American 1911 and the Belgian Browning worked opposite from those on the German Walther and all were different from the German Luger, and none of those guns at that time were drop-safe with a round in the chamber. It was the safest way to go. " So it does not really relate to a discussion of modern concealed carry.
Just figured folks might be interested.
The merits of carrying on an empty chamber might have been established back in 1949. Fast forward to 2020. Have you watched any training videos of the IDF training and shooting? I have watched several and I would say they do not give up anything by not having a round in the chamber.

Having a round in the chamber vs not having a round in the chamber is almost like asking what is the best gun cleaner. A lot of different opinions. You can ask what if scenarios all you want and still not cover everything that could or could not happen if you do or do not carry with a round in the chamber.

I am familiar with the striker fired actions, the trigger safety and the striker block and how everything has to work before you can fire a round. I carry a Glock and in spite of the safety's I do not feel comfortable carrying it with a round in the chamber. The only type of gun that I feel comfortable carrying a round in the chamber is one that has a manual safety. I would not have any issue carrying a 1911 type where you can carry it cocked and locked. I recently purchased a compact 1911 and if I can find a way to carry it concealed it will probably become my EDC.

I am not a fan of DAO type of actions or revolvers but that is just me and my .02 worth.
 
#7 ·
I carry a 1911 and am perfectly comfortable with condition 1.

Not having a round in the chamber absolutely gives up something. This is not debatable. Time is lost racking the slide. No way around this. The possibility for a problem in mishandling (not jacking the slide far enough back, for instance) is increased as this is being done under pressure. If the encounter is close the free hand is no longer available.

Carrying a compact 1911 concealed is easy. Good belt (steel insert) and OWB works just fine.
 
#10 ·
I carry a 1911 and am perfectly comfortable with condition 1.

Carrying a compact 1911 concealed is easy. Good belt (steel insert) and OWB works just fine.
I typically wear cargo pants and the lower leg outside pocket is where I carry my G43 it just fits in the pocket and does not print. I put a strip of Velcro in the pocket and one on the back of a cheap pocket nylon holster. The Velcro keeps everything in place and when I draw the gun the holster stays in place and does not come out with the gun. Has worked well for me.

The compact 1911 is bigger and will not fit in the cargo pocket so I am going to have to try IWB or OWB or maybe appendix carry to see what works best for me. I have always liked the 1911's ability to carry cocked and locked and feel fully comfortable doing it.
 
#8 ·
One of the reasons I will only carry firearms with a solidly engaging thumb safety is that I will not carry with an empty chamber (I did at first, until I got more comfortable carrying at all). I would not want to carry a striker fired pistol with a round chambered and no safety, but many do so on a daily basis.

For those who want to use some argument to say empty chamber is as good as condition 1 (or 0 if you have a Glock); that's like saying these eggs would be just as good as if the bacon wan't on my plate.

Chances are you will never need to bring a defensive pistol into play. If you do, maybe you will have the time to take that extra step. Maybe you have trained and made your draw and rack as fast and reliable as possible. You have stll given yourself a disadvantage.

NOW, I've heard of many arguments FOR carrying with an empty chamber that do make sense to the person giving the reason. I'm not disparaging anyone who has made that decision for themselves. Keep in mind that there are people reading your post who may not have the same knowledge, experience, training as you. We all need to make the best informed decision we can without shoving our own viewpoint down each others' throats.
 
#9 ·
We all need to make the best informed decision we can without shoving our own viewpoint down each others' throats.
I very much agree with your sentiment, and while I genuinely enjoy friendly discourse, the motivation for the post had been my surprise at the article having such major details that had gone unconsidered. I personally am working towards the aforementioned condition 0 carry, though at the moment, I still carry with a rubber trigger stop. (baby steps).
 
#11 ·
Hey all, despite the title, this is not intended to be a discussion about should you or shouldn't you.
(you should, but that's not my point)
I just read an article by Massad Ayoob on the subject and he brought up points that I had NEVER heard voiced before. I won't go over the whole article, though here is the <LINK>, just a couple of details that I had never heard in the debate...

1. Even if you completely disregard the extra time and complexity of racking the slide (which he did not), not needing to rack means your support hand is free to establish a proper firing grip, rather than busy racking in a round. (I've never seen this rather significant detail brought up when folks debate this subject).

2. Everyone likes to bring up 'Israeli Carry' when defending the merits of carrying on an empty chamber, the implication being that the Israeli military came to that standard based on tactical experience. Ayoob explains that in 1949, when that standard was established "...they had a low training budget, and had to work with a mishmash of whatever handguns they could get. The safeties of the American 1911 and the Belgian Browning worked opposite from those on the German Walther and all were different from the German Luger, and none of those guns at that time were drop-safe with a round in the chamber. It was the safest way to go. " So it does not really relate to a discussion of modern concealed carry.


Just figured folks might be interested.
Great to write up something like this
 
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