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Blackhawk tuning
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Lots of mistakes in that video. Notably around the 12min mark, he recommends lighter weight springs over clipping coils, and then says clipping coils will make "lock up time shorter"....
Anyone can make themselves a star on YouTube though.
Anyone can make themselves a star on YouTube though.
I have been told by several smiths not to clip coils as well because it changes the characteristics of operation in the fixed location. IE: What "seems" to be a lighter pull is actually a "trip" caused by he interacting parts not properly "set/positioned" is the best I can explain it. Their recommendation has always been to change the spring rate but keep the "working headspace" the same.
What were the other mistakes so I know what to look for?
Thanks...
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To Jem's comments, specifically, since he kinda got distracted by clipping coils instead of realizing the guy in the video is lost about spring rate effect on lock time - AND what lock time is vs. lock-up.
Gunsmiths don't typically have a deep understanding of metallurgy or materials engineering, but rather pass on a lot of old wives tales which aren't necessarily correct - but they sure sound good...
Spring rate is a function of the torsion created on the metal when compressed - the torsion being a function of the angulation between the coils, and the thickness of the wire used.
Expressed power is a function of spring compression - its displacement from rest. Firearm action springs are "pre-loaded," partially pre-compressed, then further compressed when the action is operated. Clipping coils removes some of the pre-compression, which reduces the total compression of the spring when it's operated.
Some guys "stretch" the spring" after clipping to re-establish SOME preload, but this changes the angulation between the coils when at rest. Over-stretching can also induce dislocations - weak points - in the spring. If the stretching isn't uniform, it'll also produce inconsistent compression take-up, meaning one part of the spring will take more load (more fatigue) than other parts. "Working headspace" isn't a thing - I assume "preload" is the term you're looking for.
Clipping coils IS an effective and responsible method to reduce action weight, as is replacing the springs with thinner diameter springs.
Gunsmiths don't typically have a deep understanding of metallurgy or materials engineering, but rather pass on a lot of old wives tales which aren't necessarily correct - but they sure sound good...
Spring rate is a function of the torsion created on the metal when compressed - the torsion being a function of the angulation between the coils, and the thickness of the wire used.
Expressed power is a function of spring compression - its displacement from rest. Firearm action springs are "pre-loaded," partially pre-compressed, then further compressed when the action is operated. Clipping coils removes some of the pre-compression, which reduces the total compression of the spring when it's operated.
Some guys "stretch" the spring" after clipping to re-establish SOME preload, but this changes the angulation between the coils when at rest. Over-stretching can also induce dislocations - weak points - in the spring. If the stretching isn't uniform, it'll also produce inconsistent compression take-up, meaning one part of the spring will take more load (more fatigue) than other parts. "Working headspace" isn't a thing - I assume "preload" is the term you're looking for.
Clipping coils IS an effective and responsible method to reduce action weight, as is replacing the springs with thinner diameter springs.
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You asked, so I'll indulge. Although I'm sad to waste another 20min of my life on his juvenile "I'm an expert" video. For record - I'm watching through it, pausing, and making these comments as I go through.
Throughout: He uses a roll pin punch as a drive punch. Great way to ruin the tip of a roll pin punch for its intended purpose. Doesn't really hurt anything since he's not driving them with force, but still a bad gunsmithing practice.
20seconds: He states the video is addressing ways to fix the problems that especially the older guns, "2000's, 90's, 80's guns had." I've worked on hundreds of Rugers the 80's through 2000's guns do not have any more issues than those of current production, and frankly, the current production guns are a lot more prone to have issues than the 1980's through 2000's production firearms. At ~45 seconds, he says "what used to happen is they'd have a lot of problems with the guns not being tuned right"... He obviously has extremely limited experience working on Ruger revolvers, otherwise he's just lying to make the shtick sound good for his video.
1min: He says a guy has to do a bunch of trigger jobs before - he feels - they can do a trigger job. Paradoxical oxymoronic statement - can't do a bunch of trigger jobs before you do a trigger job. Also, trigger jobs on Ruger's aren't difficult or time consuming to learn - $150 for a jig and anyone with a set of stones can do one.
1:45: Not incorrect, but way over-hyped. He acts like pulling ONE SCREW out of a Ruger New Vaquero to disable the RIP system is a significant action job. He spent more time talking about it and promoting his other video than the job should have taken to do.
3min: He checks the trigger pull, then says it broke at "about 4lbs." You can see on the screen the read out on his trigger pull gauge is reading 4lb 15.9oz. Then on the second pull, it reads 5lb 2oz, he claims "it's about 4 and a half, five pounds we're showing..." It's 5lbs on both pulls... Not 4, not 4.5-5... After the 3rd pull, you can't see the screen beyond the pound digit - which is 5lbs and unknown/unseen ounces. He does finally concede "it's breaking about 5lbs..." but then immediately follows "so 4 and 3/4, 5 pounds." The screen is visible for all 3 pulls, all 3 show 5lbs. Why would he lie about that for the video? At least at the end he admits it was 5lbs...
4:13: No "new model type" single action Ruger requires the grip frame be removed to remove the mainspring. He claims he had a few Vaqueros he had to do so with - maybe HE had to, but a competent Ruger revolversmith wouldn't.
4:21: You don't have to remove the cylinder to replace springs in a Ruger revolver. Doesn't hurt anything to do so, but it doesn't need to happen, the way he's doing this job.
4:40: He refers to the transfer bar as a "firing pin block," when saying he has to point the muzzle upward when cocking the hammer without the mainpin installed. Wrong terminology, anyone working on Rugers shouldn't be calling the transfer bar a "firing pin block.
7:17: He refers to the trigger spring retaining pin as "the spring hooks."
8:20: He mentions the poor man's trigger job, saying he doesn't recommend it because it gives "lost power"... But of course, he's referencing installing a "reduced power" spring pack. He's right to say the poor man's trigger job isn't great, but obviously has no idea why. If I recall correctly, the 30oz Wolff spring is actually LIGHTER - i.e. less power - than a single leg of a Ruger factory trigger spring. So his reasoning for favoring the wolff springs over the poor man's job isn't logical. The loss of power isn't the issue, it's the angle of applied pressure, which he obviously doesn't understand.
9:35: He's trailing off, but says that's how you can "work on your trigger springs to make them feel a little more smoother." Nothing about reduced power springs will make a trigger feel smoother. Only lighter. Lighter springs may actually make roughness more apparent. Dude's clueless and just trying to vamp for the video.
12:10: He talks about clipping coils on the mainspring again, using primer cup resistance as a reason to not reduce spring power. But he never mentions reduced preload at all, and he neglects that a clipped factory Ruger spring - only 1-3 coils removed - actually usually has greater force than a reduced power Wolff spring. In other words, he doesn't know that a shortened 17lb factory spring can be more powerful than a standard length 14lb Wolff spring - so his logic for why not to clip coils is misguided. He's passing on information he doesn't fully understand, and justifying it incorrectly.
12:12 (reiterated at 16:00): He says clipping coils and shortening a spring will shorten "lock up time". Not correct, in two ways. 1) More incorrect terminology: The time of the hammer fall is called "lock time," not "lock up time." Lock up timing in a revolver is a VERY different thing. 2) Reducing spring power - i.e. cutting coils or installing a reduced power spring does not shorten lock time, it lengthens it.
12:39 (reiterated at 15:55): He talks through how to grind down a factory spring, making an egg shaped spring cross section, possibly over-heating the spring and killing the spring temper, or leaving nicks, scratches, or gouges to elicit grain dislocations and cause spring fractures. Let alone the fact he's recommend letting it free wheel on the shaft, ensuring it will NOT produce a uniform cross section around the coils. Bad practice, irresponsible recommendation. Baffling to me that he'd recommend this modification over clipping springs.
1. I can interpolate your answer to work with my understanding of what others have explained about clipping coils and the resultant operation. The "headspace" came from a technician at Wolff Springs but I can easily see it as "preload" which confirms to me that clipping coils off is not the way to go.
2. I am new to working on singles actions and was just attempting to understand. You have my abject apology for taking your time and assure you it will not happen again.
2. I am new to working on singles actions and was just attempting to understand. You have my abject apology for taking your time and assure you it will not happen again.
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To turn your phrase: I'm not new to working on single actions and was just attempting to help you understand. I didn't take offense at your question, nor did I feel answering it was a waste of time... Frankly, I come on Internet forums to pass time when I'm stuck at my computer without workload to occupy me, so answering things like that are why I come on here, actually.
I'm pretty biased against that kind of content on YouTube. I'm sure the guy is a fine kitchen table gunsmith, but he's promoting himself as some kind of single action tuning expert. The fact he had to retire to his garage to access a vise, leaving his "gunsmithing bench," was another indicator he shouldn't be making instructional gunsmith get videos. He's not a proper smith. But people see that kind of stuff online and take his advice for what he's claiming to be - an expert...
A newbie getting terminology wrong isn't a problem, he11, it's expected. But the video star seems to have no idea how clueless he really is, and is passing himself off as some kind of expert gun tuner. And people wonder why our economy and society are going in the tank. He could have done a simple "I'm a kitchen table smith, but here's how easy it is to install Wolff gunsprings" video, and done it in less than half of the time. His commentary, which he seemed to be adding to the process only to establish his credibility, made the video at least twice as long as it needed to be, and didn't add substantive value, especially considering his incorrect statements or misused terms.
So my frustration wasn't at all with your question, but rather with the arrogance of the self proclaimed expert and single action smith in the video who made so many simple mistakes, and obviously is not a real smith.
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327 Posts
Well just joined here, I am doing both my BlackHawks , the first is a older .357, total stock, I read watched, read more watched more, I went with the Wolff 30/19 spring kit as well as a power custom gate latch spring, then polished and stoned, filed, all were there was burrs or rough edges it was stoned polished filed then re-polished. Then added triggershims which I think made the project. With the feeler gauge the trigger alone had about 13ths play with shimms installed 2ths hammer had 10 with shims 2ths. I am impressed, at the difference in the feel and smoothness of the gun, next is grips that fit my hand which will be a bit to get Herrett's made to measurements. O and it took must of the cylinder play out. Next up is the Bisley .45, I'll up date as time goes on and range report.
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The end results
I finish the lock works end of the project, the grips will show up late next month and then I'll see if it was worth the wait and the price. I feel how its all hand placement on the older BH, I am not getting the same hand placement shot to shot. the Triggershim.com, I feel made the project, the difference is night and day, the best way to describe it is smooth and positive. Very pleased with the way it can out. Hard waiting for the grips to show up.
I finish the lock works end of the project, the grips will show up late next month and then I'll see if it was worth the wait and the price. I feel how its all hand placement on the older BH, I am not getting the same hand placement shot to shot. the Triggershim.com, I feel made the project, the difference is night and day, the best way to describe it is smooth and positive. Very pleased with the way it can out. Hard waiting for the grips to show up.
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The Bisley
Here's the .45 Bisely I've always shot this one better then the .357, like I said feel how its the hold. But working on the SS, was easier you didn't have the worry about the bluing, and again the shimming works just out standing. I would do this to any of the SA ,it makes that much difference in the action.
Here's the .45 Bisely I've always shot this one better then the .357, like I said feel how its the hold. But working on the SS, was easier you didn't have the worry about the bluing, and again the shimming works just out standing. I would do this to any of the SA ,
it makes that much difference in the action. 
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As I've been clipping mainsprings on Ruger, 1911, and S&W for over 40yrs without a bobble, just good results I think since Wolfs are -as stated- weaker than a lightly clipped spring that its wise to realize that they're in the business of selling their product and have developed lots of jargonistic reasons to buy.
That may sound cynical, but cynic is just a word optimists use to describe a realist.
Having shot handguns for over 50yrs and uncountable rounds, my personal conclusion is that obsessing over accuracy with an SA and its long lock time and perceptible jump at sear-break is futile. I shoot a contender or DA when accuracy matters - but for instinctive point shooting (looking at where you want to hit instead of the gun), nothing compares to an SA, and no one makes them better than Ruger. JMO, and if noodling with the details give you pleasure then be happy .. its your right
That may sound cynical, but cynic is just a word optimists use to describe a realist.
Having shot handguns for over 50yrs and uncountable rounds, my personal conclusion is that obsessing over accuracy with an SA and its long lock time and perceptible jump at sear-break is futile. I shoot a contender or DA when accuracy matters - but for instinctive point shooting (looking at where you want to hit instead of the gun), nothing compares to an SA, and no one makes them better than Ruger. JMO, and if noodling with the details give you pleasure then be happy .. its your right
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327 Posts
RT to each there own, but for 13.50 you get three springs,, hammer, trigger, base pin, and It Do make a big differences.
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This is the last part of the BH tuning, its Herrett grips the Jordan Trooper MD, at first I felt that I made a mistake to big, but after install and playing and some dry fire, you have to cock with the left thumb. They flit my hand the a glove, trigger finger is right were it should be, sight line up on the draw. The range well tell the tail.I finish the lock works end of the project, the grips will show up late next month and then I'll see if it was worth the wait and the price. I feel how its all hand placement on the older BH, I am not getting the same hand placement shot to shot. the Triggershim.com, I feel made the project, the difference is night and day, the best way to describe it is smooth and positive. Very pleased with the way it can out. Hard waiting for the grips to show up.
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