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Discussion Starter #1
Sorry if I'm kicking a dead horse here. I know that there is a lot of discussion about concealed carry and printing.
Someone made the statement, and I paraphrase, because I don't remember where... That the illegality of printing while concealed carrying is an internet fallacy.
While I agree that keeping printing to a minimum is a good idea. (Because I come from the school that thinks concealed carry is the way to go, even if my state offered open carry.) I'm not asking for opinions. I'm more interested in what the letter of law actually says in each state.
Do any of them actually address printing when defining what concealed means? Do they actually even define what concealed means?
 

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No issues with printing here in MT. (Open carry legal)
And yes they define concealed as a "Weapon that is wholly or partially covered by clothing or wearing apparel. "
http://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca/45/8/45-8-315.htm
I would think that states that have laws against concealed carry without a permit, would have definitions.
 

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In PA Concealed Carry is defined by "the weapon being hidden from view".

Which means, in my state, if a person stretched a spandex shirt over a 10" Super Blackhawk it would be Concealed.

I have, on occasion, done what I call "concealed open carry", in other words had a Large Tall size button down shirt draped over a huge 4" GP100-shaped bulge on my hip.

If you stop caring what other people think, it becomes easier. In years past I would wear all sorts of dumb crap to hide a gun, now, as long as it's obscured from view I don't care if maybe 5% of people who see me know I have a gun.

In reality, the average person is so oblivious to their surroundings they won't even know or care what that lump on your hip is. Odds are, anyone with the sense to notice any "carry lump" is probably carrying too.
 

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Anything can "Print", like a Blue gun (training gun), dart gun, squirt gun. So it all has to do with "intent". If someone is purposely intending to "weakly conceal" their firearm so it can be seen in a certain situation, it could be considered "Brandishing". But just a bulge in an over shirt like an untucked flannel would not be considered intentional and no one will probably know unless it’s a trained eye. Now the bottom of a OWB holster can be considered open carry, if the weapon or holster can be easily seen when performing certain movements or motions that lift your outer layer above the bottom of that holster weapon, so, I highly advise against these holsters for concealed carry, while extremely comfortable and far superior for re-holstering than an IWB holster, they are much easier to spot for an untrained eye than an IWB. And I have had 1st hand witness experience of what can happen when a gun is spotted by an anti-gun, paranoid citizen. A guy in Target, concealed carrying, reached for his wallet in his back pocket, revealing the bottom of his holster, just enough for a lady behind him to see and yell "He's got a gun" which then prompted the unsuspecting concealed carrying fellow to react by lifting his shirt and grabbing the grip of his firearm and then look around. After realizing he was the individual the lady was yelling about and turning bright red, he stood down and started to explain to everyone he was a licensed carrier. not good. I maintained my silence through this and chalked it up to experience at the expense of another. No OWB's for me, thank you. and the less of a Print, the better, which can be challenging in summer apparel.
 

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^^^^^^^
I agree with everything "Trippinhard" said about OWB v. IWB carry.
As far as printing, I live in Illinois, which may be regarded as one of the LEAST politically tolerant states re: firearms. When I took my certification course, the Illinois statute was covered in some detail. Printing is specifically not an issue, the firearm is considered concealed when it is hidden from view. The wording in the statute excludes the possibility of someone who prints being charged with an offense. Here, all of the places that have the "we don't like Berettas"* sign in the window are a much bigger issue. OTOH, that's only a $150 fine.
Me, personally— I don't plan on printing, and if we had open carry here I wouldn't do it. IF something bad happens, and some BG sees me carrying before I see him, that just means I'm the first target. I regard carrying concealed as a big advantage I don't plan to give up.

*In Illinois, the "no firearms allowed" sign is a silhouette of a Beretta 92 with the red circle and diagonal superimposed. It is a specific sign, sold by the state, and that sign must be used by any establishment wishing to prohibit CCW inside. Merely scribbling "NO GUNS" on cardboard and putting it on the door does not fulfill the requirements of the statute.
 

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Probaly only another person who carries or a three year old kid would notice.
Was in coffee shop one morning and a mom and her kid about three years old are at the counter ordering. The kid is looking around a couple of minutes and stops points to a guy on a stool near the register and goes at full volume, "momma that man has a gun"

The guy sheepishly gets up and leaves. He had untucked shirt over his IWB when he st down it kind of curled up on top of it.

Not sure why he left, I would have just knocked the shirt loose so it would fall and cover it.
 

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Here in WI open carry and concealed carry are both available. While you might not want others to be able to see your "concealed" weapon, it certainly is not illegal.
 

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In Minnesota, you need a permit to carry a handgun and that's exactly what it is.....a permit to carry. As far as the law is concerned, it doesn't matter if it prints, a little shows, or it's open.
 

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In Mississippi, you can open carry but if you choose to carry concealed...it must be totally concealed. The State Trooper who issued my permit told me that if I allowed my firearm to "print", and was reported to law enforcement I could possibly lose my permit to carry. I'm sure it is a lot more complicated than that but that's what he said.

I do carry OWB quite often but always with a covering garment that won't fail me. I also carry my 1911 in a tuckable IWB and with a darker plaid shirt tucked in it would only be noticeable to someone who knew what they were looking for.
 

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I pocket carry in a pocket holster and it is a bulge when I sit but the firearm itself is not visible. It could be anything. When I use an IWB I have a covering garment and wear the firearm at 3:30-4:00. No one has ever noticed that I am aware of. Open carry is legal in NH but I only do so when I'm in the woods.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thanks for the responses.:)

In Mississippi, you can open carry but if you choose to carry concealed...it must be totally concealed. The State Trooper who issued my permit told me that if I allowed my firearm to "print", and was reported to law enforcement I could possibly lose my permit to carry. I'm sure it is a lot more complicated than that but that's what he said.
"He said." ...but what does the letter of the law say?... What would a judge say and what would he base it on? It shouldn't be complicated... Unless it's intentionally left as a gray area that allows LE and the judicial system to operate at their own discretion.
Don't get me wrong. I strongly support and appreciate LE. I just wish some things were made clearer for those of us who make every effort to abide by the law.
 

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Thanks for the responses.:)


"He said." ...but what does the letter of the law say?... What would a judge say and what would he base it on? It shouldn't be complicated... Unless it's intentionally left as a gray area that allows LE and the judicial system to operate at their own discretion.
Don't get me wrong. I strongly support and appreciate LE. I just wish some things were made clearer for those of us who make every effort to abide by the law.
If I took one thing away from my CPL class long ago it was the instuctor emphasising that very point. He stated "If you have any questions regarding legal ramifications concerning concealed weapon laws....consult a lawyer. Don't ask me, don't ask a LEO. ASK A LAWYER!!" Good advice I believe.
 

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In PA open carry is legal without a permit but it must be unloaded if you're in a car because the car is concealing your weapon. A permit is issued to those who qualify for concealed carry. As far as businesses posted "no weapons allowed" we can still legally enter them but if you are found to be carrying and asked to leave then you must leave or you can be cited for trespassing.
 

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Thanks for the responses.:)


"He said." ...but what does the letter of the law say?... What would a judge say and what would he base it on? It shouldn't be complicated... Unless it's intentionally left as a gray area that allows LE and the judicial system to operate at their own discretion.
Don't get me wrong. I strongly support and appreciate LE. I just wish some things were made clearer for those of us who make every effort to abide by the law.
Agree 100%! They leave way to many grey area's open to interpretation for us law abiding citizens. If Tom reads it one way but Harry the judge reads it another then Tom goes to jail. The advice I give anyone who wishes to carry is to read your state laws CAREFULLY and be aware of the "grey" area's.
 

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Karebru ... Here in Ohio where open carry is also legal, "printing" is not defined nor addressed in the law to the best of my knowledge.
 

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As far as I know, no state statute has language that specifically deals with "printing"; I've heard rumors of cases where people were arrested for "printing", but I haven't been able to find the actual cases.

The legal issue only exists in jurisdictions that don't allow open carry, obviously, but an arrest for open carry if the INTENT was concealed carry would be on shaky legal ground. Of course, that doesn't mean that in certain jurisdictions where the Chief Law Enforcement Officer is opposed to concealed carry (lookin' at YOU, Chicago!), that the police wouldn't be harassing people who they could tell were carrying.

In all of the places I'm familiar with that allow concealed carry but not open carry (including my own town), there is no specific law covering people with concealed carry permits who "inadequately" conceal their gun - that is left up to the interpretation of the court. Since the statutes don't have the provision - found in a lot of federal statutes - that intent is irrelevant (which is why you can be charged with a federal felony for accidental spills of toxic chemicals), the exposure of the gun would have to be intentional - the prosecution would have to prove mens rea ("guilty mind"), that you INTENDED to carry openly.

Again, none of this would prevent an overzealous law enforcement officer from arresting you, but you should have an easy time fighting it in court. Personally, I don't want the hassle, so I keep my gun well-concealed, even if it means I have to carry what some would call a "mouse gun" in warm weather.


Jim
 

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CC Law and "Printing"

Laidlerj makes a good point.
I recommend looking at your State Statutes. I've talked to lots of guys that say "This is legal, or, illegal." Then I show them what the statute actually says.
Once I started reading the statutes, even I was amazed at what I've been told incorrectly
The problem is that some statutes aren't very clear. Those are the ones that are left to interpretation. Even if you talk to a lawyer, it's still only his interpretation of the law. But hopefully they can find case law that supports his definition.
You still have to make your own decision. The most reliable decision I use is, "If in doubt, I go without."
 

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Discussion Starter #19
You still have to make your own decision. The most reliable decision I use is, "If in doubt, I go without."
Do you mean, go without a gun? I'd have a hard time with that. IMHO, if you go through the trouble to get permitted, you owe it to yourself and your loved ones, to carry at all times.
I have jury duty on Wednesday. I don't like he idea of not being able to carry in the court house... A "gun-free zone". "We will protect you while you're here." somehow isn't good enough.
Then there's the question of, Do I leave it in the car and risk the chance that it will get stolen? Or, do I leave it at home and go without for the whole day?
... Things that keep me awake at night. :rolleyes:
 

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In PA Concealed Carry is defined by "the weapon being hidden from view".

Which means, in my state, if a person stretched a spandex shirt over a 10" Super Blackhawk it would be Concealed.

I have, on occasion, done what I call "concealed open carry", in other words had a Large Tall size button down shirt draped over a huge 4" GP100-shaped bulge on my hip.

If you stop caring what other people think, it becomes easier. In years past I would wear all sorts of dumb crap to hide a gun, now, as long as it's obscured from view I don't care if maybe 5% of people who see me know I have a gun.

In reality, the average person is so oblivious to their surroundings they won't even know or care what that lump on your hip is. Odds are, anyone with the sense to notice any "carry lump" is probably carrying too.
Right EX. When I first started carrying, I thought everyone was looking at or for my gun. After years of carry, I found that nobody notices. I even forget it's there sometimes, carrying becomes so ingrained. A loose shirt in summer or a coat in winter and you're good to go.
 
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