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I have not yet obtained my permit to carry but expect to within the next couple of months (need better groupings for my own comfort though I could easily pass the certification today).

Aside from dead-on accuracy, I'm focusing on situational awareness/exercising good judgement, and weapon retention.

Thought I would ask the wise CCW folks whether you know stats are available re: how often one's own weapon is stolen or used against them in the midst of an attack? My assumption is that this would come down to training but most of us civilians don't have LEO and/or military close combat training experiences.

Anecdotal and statistical info would be appreciated. Thanks so much!

--Felix
 

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I have not yet obtained my permit to carry but expect to within the next couple of months (need better groupings for my own comfort though I could easily pass the certification today).

Aside from dead-on accuracy, I'm focusing on situational awareness/exercising good judgement, and weapon retention.

Thought I would ask the wise CCW folks whether you know stats are available re: how often one's own weapon is stolen or used against them in the midst of an attack? My assumption is that this would come down to training but most of us civilians don't have LEO and/or military close combat training experiences.

Anecdotal and statistical info would be appreciated. Thanks so much!

--Felix
that's a great question! i've heard anecdotal info about that, mostly OK with CCW not so much with open carry, but nothing valid and data-driven.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
that's a great question! i've heard anecdotal info about that, mostly OK with CCW not so much with open carry, but nothing valid and data-driven.
That makes sense. As you note, that's where a drawn weapon or open carry seems most likely to go wrong, whereas concealed may be better?

I ask in part because I'm a leftie gun owner. My leftie gun-lovin' friends and I often encounter this question with or gun-hatin' friends (what if it gets taken away, dropped, blah blah blah). I don't defend or justify carrying -- it's my right -- but I think it's a good opening to alleviate common misconceptions to those who may not have an accurate view of responsible gun owners. BUT I like to provide correct information, not "that never happens" information, if you know what I mean. Credible, not politically-driven, education is critical IMO.
 

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The Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry by Massad Ayoob covers open carry as well as concealed carry. Mas states that if you are going to carry openly you are at risk of a bad guy (or several bad guys) trying to take it away from you and then you may get shot with your own gun. With concealed carry surprise is on your side, but unless you project a resolute no nonsense intention to shoot if the perp does not instantly comply with your instructions you still stand a good chance of loosing the gun and now you have a realy irritated opponent with your gun. When I went through my concealed carry course and subsequently when talking to law officers I learned that if the bad guy is within 21 feet and starts an attack, you probably won't have the time to overcome your inertia and surprise and shoot before he is on you. Also, remember that there is no biological reason for a person or animal to fall down when shot unless the central nervous system or major skeletal components are destroyed. It takes about 10-12 seconds for the brain to shut down from lack of oxigen after the heart is destroyed. Look at Martin Falkler's forensic info on that one. Thats why a deer runs away with a good heart shot. For giggles watch a hunting video and time a deer after its shot. All the ones I've timed have gone down in about 12 seconds. Rifles are different, but handguns muzzleloaders and archery equipment all work the same. Lesson: Stay as far away as possible and don't let anyone get within 21 feet if possible and MEAN WHAT YOU SAY!
 

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To me the toughest thing to do is to constantly be alert. I like people watching when I am in public and can lose focus on what is going on all around me. As to being killed wiith my own firearm, it is definitely possible someone could beat me to death with it.

I always carry concealed unless I'm woods walking.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks -- I really appreciate your responses.

I second the alertness issue. I've been practicing it in public places but have to find a better line between alert and secret service -like vigilance! :)
 

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Agree, excellent question. I've open and ccw over 20 years. Depending on the state I and area I was in and what I was doing were my factors of open vs ccw. Never had any try and get at my gun while open carrying. I did have to pull it on a attempted car Jack while in Buffalo NY on Genesee Ave in 1995. Summer night driving home from work with the windows down. I'll tell you when he ran up to the side of my pick up and tried to open my door. I pulled leaned back and aimed by instinct. I don't remember clearing the holster. One second some sob is trying to Yank open my door yelling at me and next I'm yelling back off @#%&$# looking at him down my pistol sites. He ran and I drove on to the police station to make a report.

Best advice.. training training and more. Your hear muscle memory. Believe it. It works. The other big one is, can you pull the trigger on someone? Only you truly know how you feel about that. NO John Wayne BS. I felt before I applied for the ccw I could pull someone if I had to and I shot and trained like I would have to in real life.

It was muscle memory that got my gun out and aimed and it was my brain that took over telling him to back off and holding fire as he stopped trying to get the door open and took off. Its also when I disengaged the scene.
 

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hoss72:
That's a good account/story. I'm glad that you had the means to protect yourself and were able to fend off the assault with injury to yourself. No one really knows how they will react to using a firearm on another person until the situation presents itself. Hopefully the dirtbag (carjacker) did some soul searching that night and resolved to change his life. I'm glad you did not have to live with the experience of having to shoot another human being.

Practicing scenarios like what you described may mean the difference between going home or not. Being alert is the key to survival. One can't always go around being super vigilant, but aware of one's surroundings is key. If it doesn't feel right, it aint. Trust your gut.
 

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thank you.

I have to tell you, that night I was nowhere alert as I had just ended a 12hr shift and even through I knew Genesee and Bailey Avenue was not the best area while stopped at a traffic light I did not see the punk till he grabbed my door. I was tired and thinking about meeting the girlfriend for a late dinner.

I was lucky my dad and uncles were LOE's and made sure I took the defensive training that was available through different organizations offered. I can not stress enough to anyone thinking about carrying or home self-defense spend some cash joining an shooting organization or taking at a minimum take some of the basic classes. Your going to spend a couple hundred bucks on a gun. Spend a little more for some training. Its a tool learn how to use it correctly.

I'll now step down off my soapbox. Age does have a few benefits.
 

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Hoss is on the money. Practice builds muscle memory.
Try this. Mark off 30 feet from the target. Get someone to stand next to you, face the target from 5 feet. Your partner taps you & runs as fast as he can to the 25 foot mark while you draw and fire as many shots at the target as you can before he crosses the line. You'll be lucky to get off one. My guy was a step past. Keep working on this until you can consistently beat the runner. Then practice it moving away and laterally as you draw and fire. Use a b27 target and you'll see you don't have time for shot placement. My goal is to simply get some lead in the BG while not hurting a bystander.
My next step is to get a pair of airsoft & work on force on force drills. These drills get one used to pulling the trigger on another person.
 

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MisterFelixLC9 said:
re: how often one's own weapon is stolen or used against them in the midst of an attack?
A premise, presented by the unknowing, in an attempt to "prove" guns are unsafe. . . . . Not an issue.

Practice builds muscle memory.
Another premise that is without merit.

Muscles . . do not . . remember ANYTHING.
What you are actually doing is to train the mind to respond to a unique stimulus in a specific way.
Repetition trains the mind to respond to a complex set of instructions with little or no conscious thought. ;)
 

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Wow. You call it pop I call it soda. Its the same; its a can of Pepsi cola.

Muscle memory or Training the mind. Its the same thing. The brain controls the body. And to train the mind to respond in a manner you practice physically moving your body in a manner you want it to respond aka muscle memory. Is the same thing whatever you call it.

You can read a book or watch a video how to fly a airplane, but you still need to put your hands and feet on the controls to learn how to fly. Its still learning how to move (muscles) your hands and feet in response to stimulus.

But really not to be an a$$, but its really the same thing. Whatever name you give it.
 

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Amazing. I make a comment about an incorrect phrase, not the people using it, and I get jumped on. :rolleyes:

In today's world, and especially on the internet, inaccuracies in spoken words (unless they are being recorded, and yes, I understand these are not spoken words) are comparatively easy to correct. When they are on the internet, they come to have a life of their own. Thus inaccuracies tend to (seemingly) go on forever.
. . . . Specific example: On another gun forum there are threads started about how inaccurate manufacturer XXXXX (not Ruger) is and how much trouble they have in becoming reliable. These threads occur at least monthly and are put down with increasingly shorter terms. I'm sure the "newbie" thinks he is being looked down upon, but it is actually a matter of their not using search ON THAT FORUM. They "hear" things that are untrue, and perpetuate inaccuracies.

In light of the above, I have a propensity for being as accurate as I can, and when I do not have specific facts, will do my best to qualify my comments with IMO.

When it comes to the term "muscle memory", it is a . . . non existent . . . entity.
I believe that perpetuation of an inaccurate term is something we should avoid. My choice.

A VERY easy way to handle that is to say "a common, yet inaccurate term is 'muscle memory' " and go on with your comments.
If you choose to not to be that much of a word-smith, it IS your option.
Just remember that you are perpetuating the inaccurate.
 

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I concur with Pat.
We get a lot of "new" folk here every day.
The last thing we want to do is to fill their heads with inaccuracies.
Not everything you read on the internet is factual, although many would wrongly believe so.
 

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Top of the google search.

"Muscle Memory has been used synonymously with motor learning, which is a form of procedural memory that involves consolidating a specific motor task into memory through repetition."

You guys need to lighten up. Geez!
 

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I didn't mean to pile on. Sorry you took offense. That is and was not my intention.
But now I do have to make a stand. Your feelings that I made an erroneous statement by calling it muscle memory over your brain training. I will agree that in today's political correctness your term is probably used more and more in training literature and classrooms. But I guarantee no grizzly voiced
Smoky bear wearing DI. Will call it "brain training"

Over time things get "reinvented, updated or renamed" for political correctness or proper grammar or it may just be what part of the country your from.

Can we agree at least to say. Its time spent training or practicing a given scenario or action?

All my response to your post is; its simply the same process or thing. Even if you have to use an factually correct term. It might help to to understand somebody might of been taught prior to you when things didn't have to be politically or grammarly correct. Example 9mm Luger ammunition is the same as 9x19 yet both are exactly the same. If the correct grammar is 9mm Luger, why does Ruger stamp 9x19 on the barrel.

Didn't know I had to have a English literature bachelor's degree to post.

Sorry you felt the main point you need was to make was my not being a "word-smith" instead of your opinion of my post being the need to train repeatedly a given action so it becomes instilled and becomes an reflex action to a stimulus.
 

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Thanks!

...and as a new member I really enjoyed this exchange. It's nice to hear a discussion that's both intelligent and civilized. Thanks, guys!
 
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