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Thanks lowegan was attempting to thank you and varminator for tow of the best answer to a question I ever asked. And had another question would quick load tell you what the perfect load would be for pushing the bullet say 2.5.to 3 inches. My problem understanding is , that if the bullets getting pushed with #9 to up to 10 inches in a barrel and I only have a 2.25barrel is there a powder that can deliver the same push for the first 2,5 as the #9 to get same velocities out of the short barrel as you would with the #9.

I am getting intrigued with quick load will read more about it after I get some sleep thanks a lot
 

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Thanks lowegan was attempting to thank you and varminator for tow of the best answer to a question I ever asked. And had another question would quick load tell you what the perfect load would be for pushing the bullet say 2.5.to 3 inches. My problem understanding is , that if the bullets getting pushed with #9 to up to 10 inches in a barrel and I only have a 2.25barrel is there a powder that can deliver the same push for the first 2,5 as the #9 to get same velocities out of the short barrel as you would with the #9.

I am getting intrigued with quick load will read more about it after I get some sleep thanks a lot
Since this is not a PM, we are all free to jump in. I was also confused by the AA#9 thing but it is the highest velocity listed in the Speer manual for "Short Barrel".

I note that BE-86 has data available on the Alliant site. I figure that powder is worth a try for its low flash properties in the Unique burn rate range, so I bought a pound of it, very much into optimizing loads for smaller guns without necessarily being recoil averse.

The main thing to consider is the sonic boom. I would be careful about any assumption that the fastest load would be optimal. Staying below 1100 fps is always something I consider for something I might be shooting without hearing protection and indoors. I don't believe we're talking about hunting ammo here.
 

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Hdpearson13, Sorry I had to close the thread .... some people just enjoy screwing things up for everyone else. Back to powders and stuff. QuickLOAD is an excellent program and tracks quite well with reloading data in reputable manuals. It produces a computer generated set of parameters so it is not perfect but close enough to use for a "sanity test". The warnings tell you to use a reloading manual for actual load data. It is great for doing "what ifs" but it will not select the optimum powder for you. In essence what you do is select a cartridge from a huge list, select a bullet from a list of many different manufacturers, select a powder ... again from a long list of just about every powder in production, then you start experimenting with the charge weight. Each combination will display a pressure and velocity curve and will highlight peak pressure. You have many options on what you want to display. I mostly use "barrel length" for the X axis and pressure for the Y axis then have the program plot a trace for velocity. You can also do time, bullet travel, and several more. Rather than invent a load, I typically use a load in a Speer, Hornady, Sierra, or Nosler manual then plot it and see what happens.

Before I got QuickLOAD many years ago, I was under the same impression as you ... if you could find a powder that burned up at the same time as when the bullet exited the muzzle, you would get the best performance ... max velocity, best accuracy, and minimal muzzle flash. Turns out this is just not true ... except maybe for the muzzle flash. While on the muzzle flash topic .... some powders are formulated where they don't burn well in air ... in other words they must be contained in a cartridge, chamber, or barrel or the flame goes out. These powders tend to produce a minimal muzzle flash ... if that is important to you (it's not to me). Most popular magnum powders such as 2400, W-296, H-110, and Lil'Gun are not doped with flame retardant so they tend to produce a huge muzzle flash. In a 357 Mag, it takes about 15" of bullet travel to burn up a magnum dose of W-296 so if your barrel is a normal handgun length, you can bet it will develop a huge fire ball ... the shorter the barrel, the larger the muzzle flash.

Some strange things happen in cylinders and bores and I haven't heard a good answer why ... but it can be proven with a chronograph. What I'm eluding to is the optimum powder burn rate for a given cartridge and barrel length. You would think a much faster burn rate would work better in a snubbie and a slow burning powder would work better in a longer barrel. This is half true ... slow burning powders do work better in longer barrels but as it turns out ... they also work better in shorter barrels. As noted in the Speer chart for short barreled revolvers (2.5") .... of the powders they tested, AA#9 produced the highest velocity. Here's a somewhat strange side effect .... when barrels are considerably shorter that the length needed for a 100% burn, obviously not all the powder will burn while the bullet is still in the bore. So what happens is ... it tends to make a "pressure regulator" where the muzzle velocity will be exceptionally uniform ... it's quite common to see max velocity spreads in single digits from a snubby using slow burning powder. With fast burning powders, a few tenths of a grain will make a very notable difference in velocity but with a slow burner like AA#9 (or slower), your powder charge can vary several tenths of a grain and velocity will remain very constant. Again, something fun to try when you get your chronograph. Because of pressure regulation and consistent velocities, accuracy will be at it's best whereas with fast burning powders like AA#2, you would have to try real hard to get max velocity spreads under 50 fps. So .... if you can deal with the recoil from a 357 Mag snubbie, you will find accuracy will be better that you would expect.

Now let's get practical ... if you use a 125gr XTP bullet, reliable expansion only takes place at velocities above 1050 fps. Ballisticians say the minimum momentum for self defense is 20 lb-f/s. Assuming you loaded the max powder charge of AA#9, you should get about 1258 fps with a muzzle momentum of 22.5. Using Ballistic Explorer, I found velocity drops below 1050 fps at about 50 yards ... well past the theoretically practical shooting distance, however momentum drops below 20 lb-f/s at 26 yards. So .... this would be a good self defense load out of a SP101 where it would exceed minimum momentum and velocity well beyond self defense shooting distances. Fact is ... you could tone down the load and it would still be very effective at distances closer than 25 yards.

at liberty, I keyed in on one of your statements and would just like to comment. If you load two cartridges ... one with a velocity well exceeding the speed of sound (lets say 1200 fps) and another well under the speed of sound (about 1000 fps) both will make a very loud bang and I seriously doubt you could tell the difference in the report. If you are down range and a bullet whizzes by you above the speed of sound, you will get a very slight sonic boom .... hardly noticeable because the mass of the bullet is so small .... and only if you are very close to the bullet path. A bullet whizzing by you that is under the speed of sound will just make a swish type sound. If you are close enough to the firearm, no doubt you will also hear the report in both cases. So ... for some reason, people tend to key in on sub-sonic when indeed it makes virtually no difference.

Edited to add: Here's a QuickLOAD chart for a 357 Mag 140gr JHP wit W-296 powder. The red line and numbers are for chamber pressure. The Blue line and numbers are for velocity. Barrel length is displayed at the bottom.

 

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Really good stuff. This is hitting on several questions I've had myself over the past few months. No. 9 is my favorite powder, but I've been considering looking into 2 or 5 just like the OP for the same reasons.

Iowegan, since you mention that No. 9 is burning for around 10" of barrel length, I wonder if the load can be ladder stepped down to find a charge that produces the same velocity (and standard deviation regarding the "pressure regulator") in a 2"+/- barrel, that would reduce some of the excess blast.
 

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IOWEGAN, great stuff, as usual. The chart really helps.

Question for ya: I'm assuming that the pressure and velocity lines shown indicate overall performance in an 8" barrel . . . right?

If this is so, if we say that we're only using a 4" barrel, do the lines shown stay the same up to the 4" point and then change because the bullet has left the barrel? I'd assume the pressure would immediately drop to near zero and the velocity would take a decidedly lower track from the 4" point.

Perhaps you could post a chart that only assumes a 4" barrel, all else the same? I'm interested in whether this change also changes the peak pressure, and where it occurs in bullet travel.

:)
 

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Just a short comment on part of a post from the other thread:

Iowegan said:
The Speer #14 manual (page 896) has a chart for short barreled 357 Mag loads using a 2.5" S&W Mod 19 for chronographing. Speer used a heavier 135gr bullet ... a bit better than a 125gr for short barreled 357s but the concept is the same. Max charges with these powders produced the following velocities: 7.8gr Unique =1109 fps, 9.6gr Power Pistol = 1137 fps, 16gr 2400 = 1176 fps, 18.5gr of H-110 = 1205, 15.5gr AA#9 1258 fps. As you can see the fastest burning powder (Unique) developed the lowest velocity and BTW, Unique is a much slower burner than your AA#2, so it is even worse. The highest velocity is developed with AA#9, which is a medium slow burner ... a bit faster than H-110 but a tad slower than 2400. QuickLOAD predicts chamber pressure with 15.5gr of AA#9 at a near identical pressure to your 7.8gr load of AA#2, but it produces 250 fps more velocity.

I guess what I'm saying is ... AA#2 is the wrong powder for any 357 Mag load ... but especially for snubbies. It generates too much chamber pressure for the paltry velocity. The optimum powders for a 2.5" 357 Mag revolver would be AA#9, 2400, or Blue Dot with the absolute best going to AA#9. Once you get your chronograph, you can prove this concept beyond a shadow of a doubt.
It's my understanding that the OP is looking for load data for the 125gr XTP...If so, Alliant flatly states NOT to use Blue Dot with a 125gr bullet:

"Blue Dot® should NOT be used in the 357 Magnum load using the 125 grain projectile (Blue Dot® recipes with heavier bullet weights as specified in Alliant Powders Reloading Guide are acceptable for use).

Blue Dot® should NOT be used in the 41 Magnum cartridge (all bullet weights)."


Alliant Powder - Safety Notice
 

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One more question. Is the barrel length here reckoned from the chamber mouth? Looking at 2" vs 3" barrels, it looks like it would make quite a difference for a snubbie whether this is from the chamber mouth.
 

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at liberty, I keyed in on one of your statements and would just like to comment. If you load two cartridges ... one with a velocity well exceeding the speed of sound (lets say 1200 fps) and another well under the speed of sound (about 1000 fps) both will make a very loud bang and I seriously doubt you could tell the difference in the report. If you are down range and a bullet whizzes by you above the speed of sound, you will get a very slight sonic boom .... hardly noticeable because the mass of the bullet is so small .... and only if you are very close to the bullet path. A bullet whizzing by you that is under the speed of sound will just make a swish type sound. If you are close enough to the firearm, no doubt you will also hear the report in both cases. So ... for some reason, people tend to key in on sub-sonic when indeed it makes virtually no difference.
Yet somehow I always know instantly when a neighbor at the range is shooting 115 grain 9mm, which for caliber is incredibly sharp in its report. I personally hear an extra crack that makes me wince from cartridges that typically run well over 1000 fps.
 

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Lowegan,
You must be a professor I think I understanding exactly what you are saying. Quickload,sounds like a great tool for learning ballistics qualities of a certain round anytime and probably more so with a crono to add true velocity values. Also will be doing some starting loads in #9 in next few day was to get more bullets today but have a sick 3yo today. So will be watching kids shows all day while listening to scanner, because of local robber that's been hitting places the last couple months hit store in town and sounds like they were close to getting him again but seems like he's got a get away vehicle nobody has seen.

Basically if velocity is faster in a long barrel it will be fasted in a short barrel. But that as the barrel length shortens A slower burning powder load will lose more percentage a velocity. And a faster burning powder won't lose as much of a velocity percentage but also wasn't moving as fast for its time in barrel hence why it's most likely slower velocities.

Another thing I am not sure with revolvers. Is the case slamming of the case stop causing the sharp recoil feel. So the harder the case slams back the faster the bullets moving to begin with. And in a small snub the more the case slams back the faster the bullet is moving originally from case and in turn with short barrel that's what's going to be tell tail sign of higher velocities. Also does that mean that a slow and fast burning powder at same velocities out of a snub have similair case slamming back recoil feel? Or is that sharp recoil the result of unburnt powder igniting as bullet is traveling trough barrel and the extra pressure being released as bullet is exiting barrel? i am not that recoil sensitive but I guess just trying to understand that. I do understand that a heavier bullet also causes more felt recoil but same thing is the sharp recoil the result of the case slam or pressures leaving barrel.

Thanks a lot
Honestly best response I've ever got on any forum. Got me over the mental hurdle I believe.
 

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Man that Quickload program seems awesome. I wish I had an extra $150 to drop on it. I would like to second the question about how it measures barrel length. Is it measured from the firing pin, the B/C gap, or from the mouth of the case?
 

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WadCutter, Reducing the powder charge weight a few tenths of a grain won't affect muzzle velocity much ... if at all, however if you reduce the powder charge much more than a few tenths ... velocity will start dropping. Yes, this will reduce muzzle flash by a token amount ... probably not enough to notice. Even the minimum charge in the Speer manual is going to create quite a flash.

In my opinion, excessive muzzle flash is more over rated than sex. Here's my take from many years of firearms training with DOJ .... First, muzzle flash has no detrimental effects to the shooter in day light ... none nada, zero , where a very large percent of shootings happen. Most people (including myself) close their non-shooting eye when they aim so even if you get night blinded by a muzzle flash, you still have one good eye afterwards. Fact is, usually you don't have the luxury of aiming ... you just point shoot. In most self defense scenarios, odds are you will only fire one shot ... maybe two at most if you are a bad shot. At night, the flash can be disturbing to both the shooter and the shootee (which is desirable) ... but there is a simple technique I learned from DOJ training that virtually eliminates being "night blinded". All you have to do is to learn how to blink your eyes at the moment when your gun fires. It may take 4 or 5 rounds to get the technique down pat but it works ... as long as you remember to use it and if you forget, it's really not a big deal ... you can still see well enough with your good eye to function. So in summary, muzzle flash is no big deal for most people, and in fact I rather enjoy seeing a big flash to accompany the big boom ....however your priorities may be different!

Ale-8(1), The chart I provided was set to an 8" barrel, however you can change it to virtually any length. As for the velocity and pressure curve, assuming the same bullet and powder charge ... if you plot a chart for a 2.5" barrel, the first 2.5" of the current chart would be identical to the new chart ... so yes, the lines would be exactly the same ... except when the bullet exits the bore, residual pressure would gradually drop to zero. In a delayed blowback semi-auto (ie 1911), it's that residual pressure that remains in the barrel after the bullet exits that blows the slide back. Peak pressure (with the same powder charge and bullet weight) will occur at the same point of bullet travel ... no matter how long the barrel is. The only things I can think of that would change the peak pressure point is a revolver cylinder with tight throats or a barrel with a constriction where the barrel threads into the frame. Basically anything that changes the size of the "hole" is also going to change pressure parameters .... but QuickLOAD isn't capable of plotting those constrictions. One thing to note .... QuickLOAD does not compensate for revolver B/C gaps so I found the formula is .... for each .001" of B/C gap, it reduces muzzle velocity by 1.5%. So ... a normal revolver with a B/C gap of .006" will reduce MV by 9% compared to an unvented barrel (think Thompson Contender). The good news is ... if your revolver has a 6" barrel, it really has about 6 1/2" of bullet travel (1/2" inside the cylinder) whereas with a pistol having a 6" barrel, you have about 5" of actual bullet travel. These two losses kind of offset eachother ... making velocity from a revolver pretty close to the same as an equal length barreled pistol when shooting the same ammo.

The only QuickLOAD chart I had stored in Photobucket for a 357 Mag was the one I posted ... a 140gr Speer JHP and 18gr of Win 296. . I can easily do a different chart but I thought this one would get the idea across. Some things to note in this chart ... pressure peaks at about 1" of bullet travel then starts dropping as the bullet moves down the bore. Two issues here ... one is "Boyles Law" which states as volume increases, pressure will drop. This means the combined internal volume of the cylinder and bore keeps increasing as the bullet moves toward the muzzle. The other is ... once peak pressure is achieved, it will naturally drop ... just the nature of any propellant. If you look at a similar chart with AA#2, you will see pressure peak in less than .5" and because it burns up so fast, pressure peters out much faster than with slow burning W-296. So .... velocity will be lower at any barrel length with AA#2, even though peak chamber pressure is the same.
 

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Salmoneye, Good catch (no pun intended). The Speer chart is for a 135gr bullet, not a 125gr but your point is well taken. Why? Lighter bullets move out of the case too fast ... so fast that the powder doesn't get a chance to fully ignite. In rare cases, this can cause a squib load, which means the bullet will get stuck in the bore so if another round is fired, you could be eating your revolver for lunch.

WadCutter & notathome, With QuickLOAD, you have two options ... if you opt for "barrel length" it assumes a pistol (ie semi auto), however you can also select "bullet travel" which would be better for revolvers. The difference being, in a revolver, the bullet travels farther (at least the length of the cartridge) than in the same barrel length pistol. I guess that's why BATFE's official barrel measurement for pistols is from the breach face to the muzzle, whereas with revolvers, it's from the front of the cylinder face to the muzzle. Look at my response for Ale-8(1) in my previous post for more details.

at liberty, That distinctive crack from a 9mm is not from breaking the sound barrier ... it's from a combination of bore size and velocity. Most 9mm cartridges are hard pressed to get to the speed of sound, which is about 1,126 ft/s at sea level. If you think a 9mm cracks, you should try a 30 Carbine or a 327 Fed Mag. Its almost like a musical instrument ... the bigger the bore the deeper the sound (the lower the frequency). Even a 22 WRM makes a very notable crack when fired in a handgun ... little hole, high frequency, high velocity.

Hdpearson13,
Basically if velocity is faster in a long barrel it will be fasted in a short barrel. But that as the barrel length shortens A slower burning powder load will lose more percentage a velocity. And a faster burning powder won't lose as much of a velocity percentage but also wasn't moving as fast for its time in barrel hence why it's most likely slower velocities.
Sorry, I think you missed the whole point ... slower burning powder DOES NOT lose more percentage of velocity than faster burning powder. I think the Speer short barrel chart I referred to proves this beyond doubt.

Cases slamming back in the cylinder have nothing to do with recoil. It's really Newton's third law of motion ... "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction". As related to a gun, the amount of power generated by burning gun powder will push a bullet forward with the same amount of power as the gun recoils. Actual recoil is stated in terms of "momentum" (bullet weight times velocity). When you divide momentum by the weight of the gun, it equals "actual recoil". That said, "felt recoil" can be tamed with well fitting grips so even though the "actual recoil" is the same, it won't hurt as much.
 

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Yet somehow I always know instantly when a neighbor at the range is shooting 115 grain 9mm, which for caliber is incredibly sharp in its report. I personally hear an extra crack that makes me wince from cartridges that typically run well over 1000 fps.
It's nothing to do with the velocity of the bullet, it's the pressure of the muzzle blast. Pitch (frequency) and magnitude... A sonic boom, as the name implies, is a "boom" not a "crack" simply because it's a compressed amalgamation of the sound waves running up eachother's behind... It's loud because the accumulative wave pressure signature reaches you all at once, but the amplitude of any given frequency within the "boom" isn't any louder (amplitude) or more powerful than it would have been as a sub-sonic wave. There's more "sound" all at once, mottled and confused, but it's not louder, or of different frequency (crack vs. boom).

The pressure of the cartridge and resultant amplitude and frequency of the sound leaving the muzzle is what makes 9mm's (and 270win's, and .204 Rugers, and 7mm RM's and 17HMR's and 30carbines and 454C's....) sound so loud, even at a distance.
 

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Iowegan:

A million thanks for answering the questions I was going to ask! Now I need to get QuickLoad software to add to my new reloading equipment (Dillon RL550b, again thanks to your thread in the library).

BTW, do you ever feel like finishing your posts with "Class Dismissed"?:)
 

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I have been using QL for about two years now, it is very useful, but it is not a reloading manual. I still highly recommend it to anyone who is serious about handloading, lotsa neat stuff you can do with it, I also highly recommend a good chronograph to get the most from it.

It has been my experience, with my revolvers and my chrono, that the powder that gives best results with a longer bbl, also gives best results with short bbls.
You just get more flash and boom (OK with me :D).

I am speaking of my M19's, 2-1/2 and 6" bbl s. For the 19's I no longer load H110 with 125's, instead I use N110 and 158's. I feel there is less chance of forcing cone damage and top strap cutting with max loads, and I do load max loads. :D
 

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If you are down range and a bullet whizzes by you above the speed of sound, you will get a very slight sonic boom .... hardly noticeable because the mass of the bullet is so small .
Not quite accurate, Iowegian.
I shoot rifle silhouette competitions at Ben Avery Shooting Facility in Phoenix. The silhouette range is adjacent to the 1000 yard range and is separated by a 15' high earth berm. Our firing line is probably 50 - 100 yards up range from the 1,000 yard target frames. It is not uncommon for there to be 1,000 yard or 600 yard competitions happening simultaneous with our matches. The sonic boom reports of bullets on their way to the back stop berms are VERY noticeable! I would say the report is on the magnitude of a .22rf Magnum, in most instances and definitely louder than a .22rf being fired. The supersonic crack of a passing bullet is hardly "so small".

However, I'll concede that the supersonic crack of a passing bullet will probably not be heard by anyone in close proximity of a pistol being fired, say within 50 yards or so, if for no other reason than the distance is not great enough for the sounds to be separately distinguished from one another.

It's easy to tell whether it's a 600 yard match or a 1,000 yard match by the time lag between the crack of the bullet going by and then the boom of the rifle shot. Realize, the path of the fired bullets is probably 200 yards, give or take, from our firing line as most of the time the shooters on the 1,000 yard firing line are shooting from the middle of their firing line.

Next time you're in the neighborhood, let me know. We'll go out to the range and knock down some silhouettes!
 

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osprey, Thanks .... I actually did teach reloading classes back when I lived in Higley, AZ. Of course there were never more than a couple "students" at a time. I tried to teach them everything they needed to know ... to include things that were NOT in the book ... way more advanced than just pulling the handle on a press or adjusting a crimp die.

I think the hardest message to convey to any reloader .... new or well experienced, was how to select the optimum powder for a given load. I stumbled on the "slower powder for short barreled guns" quite by accident and actually thought it was a fluke. After doing considerably more test loads over a chronograph, I realized my old theories defied common sense. It all fell into place when the reloading manuals started publishing magnum loads for short barrels. With a few exceptions, powder selection is pretty straight forward but for some reason, it's hard for people to understand.

This whole gun industry is crazy sometimes. It is filled with urban gun legends and old wives tales ... or more accurately ... what the GI drill instructor, the cop, your boss, your dad or grandpa or some other person of authority told you about gun stuff ... which is often based on myth not truth but you are conditioned to believe it. Many things just defy common sense ... some even appear to defy science ... like the issue with slower burning powder with a short barrel. I try to dispel those old wives tales when ever I can but some of them are so ingrained that people just refuse to believe me .... as evidenced in the above conversations. Probably one of the best examples of urban gun myths is bullets traveling through sonic transition. You can take someone to the range and prove beyond any shadow of doubt that sonic transition has virtually no affect and they will go home still believing the old myth. Another famous myth is gun cleaning procedures .... I'll bet there are hundreds of procedures where the gun owner is convinced his way is the only way. Again, you can show someone a good thorough procedures and when they go home .... guess what? Yup, they go back to their old ways. Some things I have learned along the way ... sometimes people just don't care ... so when they don't care, I give up my position pretty quick.

Edited to add: Mr Chubbs, Sorry, I didn't specify but I was referring to handguns in response to at liberty's 9mm pistol discussion. No doubt ... if a rifle bullet passes by, it's going to make a lot louder sonic boom ... because it is probably going twice or three times the speed of sound and creates a much larger shock wave. I guess I didn't think of every possible variation.
 

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Probably just me, I know, but I am still scratching my head for an explanation of what I hear when I look at the chart posted earlier. I know .357 Magnum as "dramatic" enough to make those around it wince, yet the chart shows it at only 14k psi from a 4" barrel. Accepting the explanation, if I have it right, that pressure wave is what explains the impression of loudness from a gun's report, not velocity, why then is a magnum gun so blinking loud?
 

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Probably just me, I know, but I am still scratching my head for an explanation of what I hear when I look at the chart posted earlier. I know .357 Magnum as "dramatic" enough to make those around it wince, yet the chart shows it at only 14k psi from a 4" barrel. Accepting the explanation, if I have it right, that pressure wave is what explains the impression of loudness from a gun's report, not velocity, why then is a magnum gun so blinking loud?
One of the loudest I ever heard was 9mm, dunno what the load was.
 
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