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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Friends say Johnny Hurley was willing to risk death to help his fellow. This is a possibility that any carrier needs to face: Being killed by friendly fire in the confusion of an ongoing incident.


Sorry about the autoplay video.
 

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The linked article doesn't give a lot of detail about the shooting. Still, if you're going to use your firearm for self-defense or defense of others, you do not want to be holding that firearm in your hands when the police arrive.
There are a lot of articles on the same site, but I haven't found a detailed one except behind paywalls.
 

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The linked article doesn't give a lot of detail about the shooting. Still, if you're going to use your firearm for self-defense or defense of others, you do not want to be holding that firearm in your hands when the police arrive.
But an officer can come on the scene out of your line of sight in the thick of the action.

Yet the point is valid, put the gun out of sight as soon as possible.
 

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This isn’t the first time I’ve heard this story line. That’s the driving force behind me having no aspirations to be a hero.........I don’t want a “key to the City”, my house key is sufficient. (y)
I will defend myself and my family. If that also means I defend a random stranger, good deal. I'm not a hero, either.
 

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There are a lot of articles on the same site, but I haven't found a detailed one except behind paywalls.
This article has a bit more detail. I'm guessing there is little info available at this point as police investigate. As mentioned in the below article, cops say one of their officers is on admin leave; pretty typical in police involved shootings. I'm sure more details will come to light as the investigation wraps up.

Johnny Hurley, hailed by police as “true hero,” shot Olde Town Arvada gunman, witness says
 

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"Their team" ? That's part of the problem with law enforcement these days. They have an us vs them mentality. Their default is everybody is a suspect until proven otherwise. If they can't roll up and correctly identify what's going on they shouldn't be shooting anybody. Especially not someone that isn't shooting at them. I get it. It's chaotic. Too bad. Find another line of work if your default position is shoot first and sort out who's who later.

I support the police. Period. However, sometimes they're their own worst enemy.
 

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"Their team" ? That's part of the problem with law enforcement these days. They have an us vs them mentality. Their default is everybody is a suspect until proven otherwise. If they can't roll up and correctly identify what's going on they shouldn't be shooting anybody. Especially not someone that isn't shooting at them. I get it. It's chaotic. Too bad. Find another line of work if your default position is shoot first and sort out who's who later.

I support the police. Period. However, sometimes they're their own worst enemy.
I agree. I think there are three issues with policing today. 1) Military background. Recent vets spent time patrolling Afghanistan and Iraq facing insurgents and sometimes seem to fall back into that thinking as police officers. That was a shoot first situation and their mentality hasn't changed. 2) Mercenary profession. In big cities especially, the police often don't even live in the communities they serve. It's like the old story about how NYC cops all live in Staten Island. Several years ago I read a thread where someone asked about a police career and was told to follow a mercenary path - 10 years in a big city PD so you qualify for a pension, then move on to a smaller city/county job for the rest of your career. This isn't like the old days were the cops were local kids who decided to stick around and devote themselves to their community. 3) Post 9/11 "heroes." The NYC cops who died in 9/11 deserve credit, but we have now elevated "first responders" to the level of hero worship by some that used to be reserved for military vets. I was brought up to respect the police and their authority, but not to treat them as heroes. I personally think things have gone too far in that regard.

Until those things change we are going to continue to have problems with police. Not all of them or even most of them, but enough that we will always have examples.
 

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"Their team" ? That's part of the problem with law enforcement these days.
I agree. I think there are three issues with policing today. 1) Military background. Recent vets spent time patrolling Afghanistan and Iraq facing insurgents and sometimes seem to fall back into that thinking as police officers. That was a shoot first situation and their mentality hasn't changed.
You have both hit upon the salient point about the us versus them mentality. I aggregated almost three years in Iraq and understand the mindset that gets adopted in a COIN environment. Outside the wire, we viewed everyone with suspicion if they weren't U.S. or allied military, known contractors or Iraqi personnel we trusted. Because anyone could decide to pull a weapon or trigger an IED, we kept our eyes peeled for that. Until we actually spoke with an individual and had reason to think otherwise, that person was a potential threat.

Unfortunately, many police seem to operate with the same kind of mindset. They aren't as much patrolling to prevent crime as much as they're conducting COIN ops, where they're the occupying force, and the rest of the population is a bunch of potential threats or violators of some kind. It's a problem with their senior leadership and local leadership who allow that philosophy to predominate.

As a result, the officers of those departments aren't working for their community as much as they are keeping the plebs in line. When they see one of the plebs with a firearm drawn, they see a hostile insurgent, and their qualified immunity will shield them from personal liability when they shoot first and ask questions later. They can even get away with murdering an unarmed woman for the crime of trespassing and ger away with it, even so much as to have their identities hidden.

It's a tough, thankless job, but they chose it and the inherent risks. That means that they are obligated to take a moment before gunning down an unarmed person when that person hasn't demonstrated that he's a bad guy. That's not asking an officer to put himself or his colleagues at greater risk. That's just being a decent human and member of the community. Like you said @Bonk , if they can't do that, then they should be in another line of work.

I will add one additional point, @Sarkus . There is no shoot-first mentality down range. The ROE won't allow it. PID is mandatory. Winning hearts and minds is hard to do when you put two in the heart and one in the mind of a random local, and the guys on the ground understand that very well.
 

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"Their team" ? That's part of the problem with law enforcement these days. They have an us vs them mentality. Their default is everybody is a suspect until proven otherwise. If they can't roll up and correctly identify what's going on they shouldn't be shooting anybody. Especially not someone that isn't shooting at them. I get it. It's chaotic. Too bad. Find another line of work if your default position is shoot first and sort out who's who later.

I support the police. Period. However, sometimes they're their own worst enemy.
I can't even recount how many stories I've read over the years in my former hometown where plain clothes or off duty cops were shot and killed by responding uniformed officers or fellow plainclothes or off duty cops. These cops were either on or off duty when they intervened with armed robberies on subways, in conveniences stores or just at the scene of two parties that start shooting each other up. They resolve the situation and then end up dead cause someone isn't mentally fit to assess the situation.

I watched a video a while back of a cop pulling over a motorcycle and he is not even in panic mode, but he gets out of his car, draws his weapon and shoots the guy on the motorcycle in the arm... all on video. They guy was not posing a threat. He realized he made a mistake immediately. At least he was calm enough to call for help and render first aid and apologize to the guy... probably why he kept his job. But damn... some people need more situational training.
 

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You have both hit upon the salient point about the us versus them mentality. I aggregated almost three years in Iraq and understand the mindset that gets adopted in a COIN environment. Outside the wire, we viewed everyone with suspicion if they weren't U.S. or allied military, known contractors or Iraqi personnel we trusted. Because anyone could decide to pull a weapon or trigger an IED, we kept our eyes peeled for that. Until we actually spoke with an individual and had reason to think otherwise, that person was a potential threat.

Unfortunately, many police seem to operate with the same kind of mindset. They aren't as much patrolling to prevent crime as much as they're conducting COIN ops, where they're the occupying force, and the rest of the population is a bunch of potential threats or violators of some kind. It's a problem with their senior leadership and local leadership who allow that philosophy to predominate.

As a result, the officers of those departments aren't working for their community as much as they are keeping the plebs in line. When they see one of the plebs with a firearm drawn, they see a hostile insurgent, and their qualified immunity will shield them from personal liability when they shoot first and ask questions later. They can even get away with murdering an unarmed woman for the crime of trespassing and ger away with it, even so much as to have their identities hidden.
Also, let's be realistic about the fact that they're now being trained to operate this way. The people who want such results have learned that they're required to spout some politically correct lines with a smirk and a chuckle. Everyone laughs and assures each other that they'll get away with it if they falsely accuse the victim.

And some of the fault lies with firearms training that's designed as a shooting gallery video game, so they frequently shoot cops holding up their badges.

This won't happen, but part of the solution would be to stand back and size up the situation instead of charging in with guns blazing, but this is only one type of scenario in the grand scheme of things.
 

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This won't happen, but part of the solution would be to stand back and size up the situation instead of charging in with guns blazing, but this is only one type of scenario in the grand scheme of things
I don't even shoot every time I drill just so I don't train myself to shoot every time I draw. I do one shot drills and failure drills where I tell myself the threat stopped. The guy that taught my CCW class a long time ago said when he was teaching at the academy, they would tell the students to raise their hands if they had a malfunction. He said they had to stop that cause there were video of cops involved in shootings that had malfunctions and they would literally be raising their hands in the videos of the shootings instead of corrective action. I completely understood it, but most in the class could not imagine how that was happening. Everything you do or fail to do is teaching yourself or reinforcing good or bad habits.
 

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Exactly, fixing the issues that we have with training will be somewhat involved, in terms of looking at how the training inculcates bad habits, such as those described in this thread.

The tv solution of adding politically correct propaganda to the training, such as mental health and critical race theory, won't work. The politically correct propaganda has a lot wrong with it, including being incredibly offensive.
 

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It's kinda a double edge sword, a shooter on the scene, a good guy defends against the shooter, the police show up before it's over, how do they know the shooter from the good guy.. It can be a problem.
News account indicates that the civilian picked up the shooter’s AR after shooting the bad guy with a handgun. The shooter had retrieved the rifle from his car after fatally shooting a police officer with a shotgun.

Seeing an unknown person holding an AR, the responding LEO did the logical thing, sadly.
 
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