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FBI switching from .40 to 9mm
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IMO not really surprising. Apparently the FBI is not the only agency considering a move back to the 9-m/m round.....
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In Indiana, the State Police made the switch from Beretta .40's to Glock 22's and discovered several frames cracking during training to the new pistols...so Glock remedy'd the problem with a deal on some Glock 17's in 9mm...and the State Police went back to 9mm...this was back in 2005-06!
I used to hate 9mm...viewed it as 'inferior' to other rounds even to the point of preferring .38+P over any 9mm round...until my wife got her first Glock 26. I grew up on .357 magnum and 9mm just felt 'soft' after being used to that caliber! After I discovered +P+ 9mm rounds...and doing some real in-depth 9mm comparison studies, I'm actually okay CCing 9mm as a personal defense round now-days!
There for a few years, the wife and I both carried Glock 9mm pistols (she carried my G19 and I installed a 9mm conversion barrel in my G23) so that we were CCing the same caliber and magazines...abeit my magazines were stoked with +P+ whereas my wife's was filled with +P ammo.
Two of the most important key components of personal defense is a) shot placement and b) adequate penetration...everything else follows behind those two elements of defending one's self in a shooting situation...and if you do your research, you will find that the 9mm round will adequately meet both of those components.
I used to hate 9mm...viewed it as 'inferior' to other rounds even to the point of preferring .38+P over any 9mm round...until my wife got her first Glock 26. I grew up on .357 magnum and 9mm just felt 'soft' after being used to that caliber! After I discovered +P+ 9mm rounds...and doing some real in-depth 9mm comparison studies, I'm actually okay CCing 9mm as a personal defense round now-days!
There for a few years, the wife and I both carried Glock 9mm pistols (she carried my G19 and I installed a 9mm conversion barrel in my G23) so that we were CCing the same caliber and magazines...abeit my magazines were stoked with +P+ whereas my wife's was filled with +P ammo.
Two of the most important key components of personal defense is a) shot placement and b) adequate penetration...everything else follows behind those two elements of defending one's self in a shooting situation...and if you do your research, you will find that the 9mm round will adequately meet both of those components.
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Newer developments in ammunition have helped this along, but the real reason is their is no reason to have a caliber if users can not make accurate 1st & follow up shots.
My son is a Federal Agent & they have had Glock 17's all along & never switched.
They hit what they aim at!
I never got on the .40 S&W bandwagon. I do not own one and have shot 1 several times & just didn't like it.
.45 acp in my 1911 if the 9mm is not enough.
My son is a Federal Agent & they have had Glock 17's all along & never switched.
They hit what they aim at!
I never got on the .40 S&W bandwagon. I do not own one and have shot 1 several times & just didn't like it.
.45 acp in my 1911 if the 9mm is not enough.
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Probably should go to .22's if they can't do 40's. You can carry more 9's but you have to shoot more. My MGSGT cousin hates 9's and he is combat experienced. why have a protocol to shoot two to center mass and then one in the head if one .45 or .40 does the trick. makes no sense. JMO
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Hitting your target is the #1 goal, doing enough damage to stop the threat is #2, and having a firearm that is ultra reliable is #3. No matter the caliber, with the right ammo designed to do the job at hand, whether its a gold dot, hydrashock, +p or -p, or whatever else, as long as it does its job effectively, who cares what caliber it is. Their are instances where 44 magnum to the cranium wasn't enough, and I am sure their are instances where a 22lr did fine. I say they should decide what tool they need to accomplish the task. We who carry do the same thing for our own personal reasons. I would not want to be hit with any of them, under any circumstance. Just my honest opinion.
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Works for me.Hitting your target is the #1 goal, doing enough damage to stop the threat is #2, and having a firearm that is ultra reliable is #3. No matter the caliber, with the right ammo designed to do the job at hand, whether its a gold dot, hydrashock, +p or -p, or whatever else, as long as it does its job effectively, who cares what caliber it is. Their are instances where 44 magnum to the cranium wasn't enough, and I am sure their are instances where a 22lr did fine. I say they should decide what tool they need to accomplish the task. We who carry do the same thing for our own personal reasons. I would not want to be hit with any of them, under any circumstance. Just my honest opinion.
Nicely stated.
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This is the second time the FBI switched to 9mm and praised it's performance until-----.
The first time when they switched from 38-357 and stated that the Winchester silver tip ammo was the best to use in their new 9mm pistols. That lasted until the Miami shootout and a suspect shot down 3 agents after taking a mortal wound into the chest that lacerated lungs and heart. All of a sudden the great 9mm was not so great.
They went to the 10mm and that lasted a very short time and adopted the 40 S&W cal. Now they are back to the 9mm again and stating the same as they did the first time.
I am a retired law enforcement firearms instructor and the real reason the FBI is going back to the 9mm is that anything above 9mm is to much gun for most of their agents. If the requirements are still the same, an agent must have a law degree or accounting degree before signing up. Most of those agents are city boys and girls that have had little or no firearm experience and it shows on the range. Anything above 38 Special or 9mm has to much recoil for them and it is hard to train them enough to be proficient with a larger caliber. You can read that as being to expensive in terms of manhours on the range and cost of ammo.
Those so called advances done for 9mm ammo has also been done for the 40 cal and 45 cal. Also you do not have a guarantee that hollowpoint 9mm ammo will expand everytime. Quite frequent it fails to expand to the desired 40-45 caliber when encountering heavy winter clothing. My motto is start out with a 40-45 caliber in the first place if you are proficient enough to place that bullet in the right place and not spray and pray for a vital hit.
The first time when they switched from 38-357 and stated that the Winchester silver tip ammo was the best to use in their new 9mm pistols. That lasted until the Miami shootout and a suspect shot down 3 agents after taking a mortal wound into the chest that lacerated lungs and heart. All of a sudden the great 9mm was not so great.
They went to the 10mm and that lasted a very short time and adopted the 40 S&W cal. Now they are back to the 9mm again and stating the same as they did the first time.
I am a retired law enforcement firearms instructor and the real reason the FBI is going back to the 9mm is that anything above 9mm is to much gun for most of their agents. If the requirements are still the same, an agent must have a law degree or accounting degree before signing up. Most of those agents are city boys and girls that have had little or no firearm experience and it shows on the range. Anything above 38 Special or 9mm has to much recoil for them and it is hard to train them enough to be proficient with a larger caliber. You can read that as being to expensive in terms of manhours on the range and cost of ammo.
Those so called advances done for 9mm ammo has also been done for the 40 cal and 45 cal. Also you do not have a guarantee that hollowpoint 9mm ammo will expand everytime. Quite frequent it fails to expand to the desired 40-45 caliber when encountering heavy winter clothing. My motto is start out with a 40-45 caliber in the first place if you are proficient enough to place that bullet in the right place and not spray and pray for a vital hit.
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Federal HST 9mm will expand consistently. Every. Time.
FBI has gone from 10mm, to .40, to 9mm........
Maybe "smaller stature agents" couldn't handle the .40.......
I also think many LE agencies are going to 9mm's, because the Officers pretty much grab the AR any time something looks "serious" anyway. Pistols are turning into belt ornaments. Bean counters can save taxpayer dollars by buying 9mm for training vs. .40 or .45, it's easier to qualify with, and the guns hold more ammo........plus it's more "lawyer friendly"for LEO's to carry lower powered rounds so the public doesn't think their police are going to be slinging .45's all over the street. The same reason many PD"s never issued .357's, "back in the day".
My LEO friend was telling me they got a call for a domestic dispute and there was a "weapons involved" thing with the call so he said they grabbed their AR's before they went up to the house......pretty soon, cops will just take that AR with them whenever they leave the car. We're going to a more "militarized" LE these days. I think they just use "possible weapons involved" anymore just so they can take the patrol rifles.........I cringe at the day when I'll get pulled over for speeding, a LEO will see my "OIF veteran" plate and come to my window with an AR-15........because I 'might have a weapon".......
Maybe "smaller stature agents" couldn't handle the .40.......
I also think many LE agencies are going to 9mm's, because the Officers pretty much grab the AR any time something looks "serious" anyway. Pistols are turning into belt ornaments. Bean counters can save taxpayer dollars by buying 9mm for training vs. .40 or .45, it's easier to qualify with, and the guns hold more ammo........plus it's more "lawyer friendly"for LEO's to carry lower powered rounds so the public doesn't think their police are going to be slinging .45's all over the street. The same reason many PD"s never issued .357's, "back in the day".
My LEO friend was telling me they got a call for a domestic dispute and there was a "weapons involved" thing with the call so he said they grabbed their AR's before they went up to the house......pretty soon, cops will just take that AR with them whenever they leave the car. We're going to a more "militarized" LE these days. I think they just use "possible weapons involved" anymore just so they can take the patrol rifles.........I cringe at the day when I'll get pulled over for speeding, a LEO will see my "OIF veteran" plate and come to my window with an AR-15........because I 'might have a weapon".......
The downgrade to 9mm was so that "non gun people" can handle their weapons......
The days of when Lawmen were real gunfighters and combat vets who can actually handle weapons is gone, now instead of FBI Agents putting their Big Boy (or Big Girl) pants on and handling the larger caliber, it's easier to go to 9mm and call it "good enough". IMO again handguns play little more than a last-ditch defensive role anymore, for most LEO's, so it's a moot point. The days of old when Police or Federal Agents went into dangerous scenarios with .38's and maybe a 12 gauge are done,now they go in with body armor and 5.56 rifles.
It's a step backwards.........I was just talking to a guy at my job today about how .38 Super was developed so the FBI Agents could punch through vehicles and stop marauding Gangsters. 10mm was basically developed just for the FBI, then they dropped it. All these "wonder rounds" that became niche rounds for collectors and shooters..........just like .41 Magnum was developed to be THE Law Enforcement round, but it was too much for non-gun people to handle, so it became a niche round.
The days of when Lawmen were real gunfighters and combat vets who can actually handle weapons is gone, now instead of FBI Agents putting their Big Boy (or Big Girl) pants on and handling the larger caliber, it's easier to go to 9mm and call it "good enough". IMO again handguns play little more than a last-ditch defensive role anymore, for most LEO's, so it's a moot point. The days of old when Police or Federal Agents went into dangerous scenarios with .38's and maybe a 12 gauge are done,now they go in with body armor and 5.56 rifles.
It's a step backwards.........I was just talking to a guy at my job today about how .38 Super was developed so the FBI Agents could punch through vehicles and stop marauding Gangsters. 10mm was basically developed just for the FBI, then they dropped it. All these "wonder rounds" that became niche rounds for collectors and shooters..........just like .41 Magnum was developed to be THE Law Enforcement round, but it was too much for non-gun people to handle, so it became a niche round.
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My local city PD is also starting a move from Glock 40s to 9mms. IIRC, the reasons stated were: Training ammo costs, cracking frames, better shooting scores for most officers, more ammunition, and at least one manufacturer "over-allowing" for the value of the trade-in guns, should they buy their product. The 40s have a great record in actual shootings here locally. We'll wait and see with the 9mms.
The metrosexuals attending the FBI academy today can't handle anything bigger than the 9mm. I can see the FBI going to the .380 AP or .25 AP in the future.
Why does it always seem like all roads lead back to 9mm...........
The .40 was the "standard issue cop round" for over a decade, and now a lot of them are "back to the 9mm".
I haven't noticed that bulk .40 is much higher priced than 9mm, especially for dept.s buying in bulk by the pallet getting deep discounts.......
The .40 was the "standard issue cop round" for over a decade, and now a lot of them are "back to the 9mm".
I haven't noticed that bulk .40 is much higher priced than 9mm, especially for dept.s buying in bulk by the pallet getting deep discounts.......
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For decades, the standard police issue sidearm in Sweden was the Walther PP in 7.65 X 17mm (.32 ACP). That was the same round that was the standard police round in many European countries. It wasn't until drug runners started showing up with bigger calibers that those police agencies "upgraded" to the 9mm.
I'm not saying we should emulate the Europeans, just pointing out that for decades the "wimpy" .32 ACP was considered perfectly adequate for police work and, even though the criminals went to larger calibers, the human body is pretty much the same now as it was then, so the "stopping power" of the .32 ACP hasn't declined over the years.
Speaking as someone who is frequently called upon to resuscitate people who have gotten in the way of bullets, my experience has been that a solid hit with a 9mm causes much more damage than a near miss with a .40 S&W. No matter what the reason - smaller agents, less firearm experience or metrosexuality - if the FBI finds that it's agents have a better chance of getting a hit with a 9mm over the .40 S&W, then it's probably best for them to change to it.
Jim
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Hmm.......you can tell a younger shooter because when they refer to 9mm Luger rounds they say 9mm, as if there weren't a boatload of way different 9mm rounds.
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