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We often see in magazines, books, videos, and movies, the results of gunfights. What we do not see, is clinical, empirical evidence of what happens to those wounded/killed in a gunfight. In the last century, Evan Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow wrote of much anecdotal "evidence," that put forth their beliefs, as regards to bullet weights, velocities, bullet designs, and the results of gunfights. However, what is needed now, is useful information, that the CCW holder can use when in the gravest extreme.

Does anyone know what books, based upon autopsies, forensics, and witness testimony, are available to the public? Too, are there pathologists, ER doctors, nurses, LEOs, and reiable witnesses, that have given of themselves, sharing, or are willing to share, their observations and experiences, vis-a-vis actual, modern day, gunfights?

If such valuable resources were available, or could become available, knowledge would be increased, and shared, perhaps lending to the increase of the survival rate of John Q. Public... People need to know, and understand, cause and effect. They need to know what works, and what doesn't work.

Perhaps the Mods, along with representatives of the forensic and pathology fields, as well as initial medical responders and surgery personnel, could teach us what we need to know- in order to survive...

Just a thought- one which I hope many will entertain...

All the Best...

OldPaladin1949
 

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We often see in magazines, books, videos, and movies, the results of gunfights. What we do not see, is clinical, empirical evidence of what happens to those wounded/killed in a gunfight. In the last century, Evan Marshall and Edwin J. Sanow wrote of much anecdotal "evidence," that put forth their beliefs, as regards to bullet weights, velocities, bullet designs, and the results of gunfights. However, what is needed now, is useful information, that the CCW holder can use when in the gravest extreme.

Does anyone know what books, based upon autopsies, forensics, and witness testimony, are available to the public? Too, are there pathologists, ER doctors, nurses, LEOs, and reiable witnesses, that have given of themselves, sharing, or are willing to share, their observations and experiences, vis-a-vis actual, modern day, gunfights?

If such valuable resources were available, or could become available, knowledge would be increased, and shared, perhaps lending to the increase of the survival rate of John Q. Public... People need to know, and understand, cause and effect. They need to know what works, and what doesn't work.

Perhaps the Mods, along with representatives of the forensic and pathology fields, as well as initial medical responders and surgery personnel, could teach us what we need to know- in order to survive...

Just a thought- one which I hope many will entertain...

All the Best...

OldPaladin1949
Go to YouTube and look up Greg Ellifritz study. You will find it's very interesting and answers a lot of your questions

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
 

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HERE'S an article regarding handgun stopping power you may find interesting.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thank-You, Gentlemen! I'll look him up, directly!

All the Best!

OldPaladin1949
 

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Thank-You, Gentlemen! I'll look him up, directly!

All the Best!

OldPaladin1949
Greg Ellifritz' study is a good one but he admits towards the end that his main findings are that most handgun calibers are equally good at "one stop shots" where the person is not incapacitated but gives up the fight, in other words they are psychological stops. ANY handgun round is good at doing that. However, if the person DOES NOT stop then the smaller calibers, .22LR, .25ACP and .32acp had double the rate of failure of larger calibers to incapacitate.

Most of the shootings in his studies also did not involve someone being shot through barriers. If one needs to shoot through barriers, i.e., walls, auto glass, etc. then the larger calibers are a much better choice so Mr. Ellifritz does not recommend carrying the mouse gun calibers for those reasons.

Here is some more good enough on handgun stopping power and what happens to someone when they get shot with a handgun vs. a rifle from two bonafied experts in the field who work at Federal developing their ammunition:

 

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Thought provoking!

Outstanding article by Mr. Ellifritz. Goes along with YouTube video of the same.

I remember reading Massad Ayoob's article that took Marshall and Sanow to task. He, Ayoob, was correct in all respects. Science, not visceral participation. I was amazed then, and with Mr. Ellifritz' work, I do believe you all are right as well... This isn't a case of "lies, damned lies, and statistics." Ayoob and Ellifritz are the "real deal."

Thank-You, Gentlemen, for bringing this to mind, and reacquainting me with what I'd lost, two strokes and a seizure ago...

OldPaladin1949
 

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That is a good read, thanks for sharing.
 

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John Q. Law Abiding Public gets into so relatively few gunfights that it's probably not statistically significant. Maybe the Chicago Medical Examiner would have a useful quantity of data points. I don't know if there's any difference between rival gang war shootings and lawful self defense shootings, but that may be all we've got to go by.
 

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Okay, not trying to be a smart guy here, but I think this may be one of those topics where too much detail is just that; too much. At least for the average person who doesn't face a high likelihood of getting into gun battles on a regular basis.

To me, it's pretty simple. Pieces of metal speeding through the air put holes in the body. This causes pain and bleeding- both of which can stop people from continuing to do whatever it was that led to them being shot in the first place. More holes equals more pain and more bleeding.

I think there are just too many variables in almost every documented shooting to say that one bullet is deadlier than the other. And I still believe that shot placement is the key to winning in a gun fight.

I pray that I never have to learn that lesson firsthand.
 

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Okay, not trying to be a smart guy here, but I think this may be one of those topics where too much detail is just that; too much. At least for the average person who doesn't face a high likelihood of getting into gun battles on a regular basis.

To me, it's pretty simple. Pieces of metal speeding through the air put holes in the body. This causes pain and bleeding- both of which can stop people from continuing to do whatever it was that led to them being shot in the first place. More holes equals more pain and more bleeding.

I think there are just too many variables in almost every documented shooting to say that one bullet is deadlier than the other. And I still believe that shot placement is the key to winning in a gun fight.

I pray that I never have to learn that lesson firsthand.
To much detail for some. Not enough for others. I'm glad there's somebody that does the research. I agree..learning first hand is not a fun idea.
 

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Call me a nerd (some do). I like reading both articles. Of course, they both reinforced what I already believed based on my own research over the years. Not extensive research, just combing through different sources and compiling those that seem reliable to draw general conclusions.

All things being equal, I carry 9mm guns most of the time because in the size and weight I can conceal carry, they are the ones I shoot the best.
A .22 in your pocket is better than a .45 at home could read a .22 in the chest is better than a .357 in the wall behind the wall behind the wall behind the guy you just missed.

If (or when for some of you) the zombie (or other bad event) apocalypse comes, I will be grabbing my SR1911 in .45ACP not because it is the best gun or the best caliber, but because it is by far the gun I shoot the most accurately.
 

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To much detail for some. Not enough for others. I'm glad there's somebody that does the research. I agree..learning first hand is not a fun idea.
Oh, I enjoy reading those articles and watching the videos too. And I do find it interesting.

Just saying it's easy to be caught up in the minutiae of it all. Guess it all boils down to the right tool for the job.
 

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I think there are just too many variables in almost every documented shooting to say that one bullet is deadlier than the other. And I still believe that shot placement is the key to winning in a gun fight.
Hence the Mozambique drill: two rapid-fire shots in the torso, followed by one in the head. I realize that after being shot, a bad guy will move, but it's reassuring to be able to switch aiming points fast.

I practice several drills with the guns I shoot best: the Mozambique, the "2 spent and 4 lives rounds" in a revolver (to correct any habits of moving the sights when pulling the trigger), shooting from cover, moving and firing, point-shooting, tactical reloads for my 1911.

Maybe I'm naive, but from my experience in Corrections I found that most criminals are lazy. They are not going to the range to practice their marksmanship. Many of them, in my experience, carried really crappy guns and experienced jams.

So find the gun you shoot best and keep at it. Punching holes in paper is not enough.
 

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One of my daughters is an icu trama nurse in an inner city northern nj hospital and she treats many gunshot patients and says how amazint the relative difference from one patient to another is. MS 13 is powerful in that city and uses their traditional weapon the machete often. Those woulds are usually non survivable.
 

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Call me a nerd (some do). I like reading both articles. Of course, they both reinforced what I already believed based on my own research over the years. Not extensive research, just combing through different sources and compiling those that seem reliable to draw general conclusions.

All things being equal, I carry 9mm guns most of the time because in the size and weight I can conceal carry, they are the ones I shoot the best.
A .22 in your pocket is better than a .45 at home could read a .22 in the chest is better than a .357 in the wall behind the wall behind the wall behind the guy you just missed.

If (or when for some of you) the zombie (or other bad event) apocalypse comes, I will be grabbing my SR1911 in .45ACP not because it is the best gun or the best caliber, but because it is by far the gun I shoot the most accurately.
I agree and disagree.

I am grabbing my AR when the Zombies come and my high capacity Glock as a second choice. I shoot my 45 pretty well, but not twice as good as my 9mm.
 

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I'm now in my 70's, and have seen articles and discussions about "what's best" for most of my adult life. This is the first time I've seen the data from Mr Ellifritz, and I have to say my experience agrees with his observations. I spent most of my career in Homicide in a large midwest city that saw 300+ homicides a year in the busy years. Probable exposure to close to 2000 deaths. Added to that was my participation on our "shooting team" and the investigation of about 60 or 70 officer involved shootings that lead to changes in both firearms and ammunition in our department. I won't pretend to know more that an ER doc, a Coroner, or some of our better known gun scribes, but can offer a few observations. Again, I'm not trying to contradict anything we've read anywhere over the years, but I will say that nothing is predictable. Yes, better calibers, more efficient bullet styles, number of hits, and shot placement all CAN affect the "outcome", but I've seen guys who took multiple torso hits from medium to large calibers actually drive themselves to the ER, and big guys who keeled over from one round from a .22 or .25. Why? Can't answer that, but it happened often. I just don't think there's anything "perfect" out there and never will be. Bottom line, I'm not going to the mall with an AR15 or a shotgun, and I'm not going to fret over all the "what ifs". I'm prepared mentally and physically, and common sense says that something is better than nothing. I'm comfortable enough with my 9mm compact auto to know that I'll do everything my abilities allow to place rounds where they USUALLY do some damage. It's worked for me before and odds are it will suffice in the future.
 

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Cannot document the source. so take it for what it is worth, A ER Dr in Miami, very experienced, said that he usually could not tell what caliber the would was, but he said in his experience it was about the number of holes vs size of hole! More holes, quicker the BP drops, quicker the person drops.
 
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