Ruger Forum banner

121 - 139 of 139 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
108 Posts
Discussion Starter #121
The farthest I have strayed from John Browning is to buy a used Para Ordnance LDA .45 and I’m still on the fence on how I feel about it. So far I find the design to have little point, but it was priced right and I’m a sucker for a good deal.
[sp] A friend raved about the PA LDA. He, too had picked a used one up for a steal. So, when out kicking tires, I checked out a new one. In the store, that LDA trigger blew my mind - it felt wonderful.

But I've since heard that it's actually a fairly poor design with little hope of holding up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
108 Posts
Discussion Starter #123
I have an XD Tatical and I love it. Some say the XD shoots left, but if you squeeze the trigger instead of pulling it you will see the results. Accuracy no problem with mine.
Can you quantify accuracy with the XD? I shot a friend's XD 45 using a bench rest and, at 15 yards, groups were over 4". He's shot it a lot more, but can do not better.

But I constantly hears of 1911s holding under 2" groups at 25 yards.

Which gives me an idea: I'll ask a very specific question:

Setting aside 1911s, can anybody here say thier alternate 45 can hold 2" groups at 25 yards?

I realize that, for purposes for self-defense, groups the size of a pie plate at ten yards will "get the job done" if fired at center mass. But my primary purpose for this gun isn't SD. For that I rely on my 357 Mag.

This new "wish list" gun is primarily for range shooting where it's just too much fun eating out a bulls-eye at 15 yards.

I'd simply like it to meet my other criteria, too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
108 Posts
Discussion Starter #124
What is the problems with P345? I have been reading this all over the place. By the way Just picked up my SR1911 last night. ( 3 week wait )
Congratulaions on the SR1911! I think it's one of the best ideas Ruger's had in a long time.

Alas, it's not yet on the silly roster of CA approved handguns. I really hope Ruger takes the trouble, and pays the bribe, to get it listed in CA.

Give us some reports on that new Ruger, eh? Problems, foibles, etc. (Your pie plate group looks very, very good.)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
403 Posts
Can you quantify accuracy with the XD? I shot a friend's XD 45 using a bench rest and, at 15 yards, groups were over 4". He's shot it a lot more, but can do not better.

But I constantly hears of 1911s holding under 2" groups at 25 yards.

Which gives me an idea: I'll ask a very specific question:

Setting aside 1911s, can anybody here say thier alternate 45 can hold 2" groups at 25 yards?

I realize that, for purposes for self-defense, groups the size of a pie plate at ten yards will "get the job done" if fired at center mass. But my primary purpose for this gun isn't SD. For that I rely on my 357 Mag.

This new "wish list" gun is primarily for range shooting where it's just too much fun eating out a bulls-eye at 15 yards.

I'd simply like it to meet my other criteria, too.
hell my $195 Hi point Shoots 3" groups at 15 yards, never shot it at 25 yards, being 3" or 2" @ 25 yards is a pretty hard shot to do. either way your still in the sweet spot, Even a 4" group @ 25 yards is very acceptable by most peoples standards. am i right?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
118 Posts
It is hard to beat a 1911 for 45 acp. I have had several versions of the Colt over the years. I have also had a Ruger P90 that was a reliable and accurate pistol as well. The only 45 I have right now is a S&W 645. This is a nice double action pistol and is plenty accurate for a defensive pistol. I am looking forward to getting my hands on the new Ruger SR1911. All the experts that have reviewed the SR1911 have raved about how good it is.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
108 Posts
Discussion Starter #127
Try the Ruger SR1911...~$650 if you shop around and the accuracy is fantastic. The gun is equal to any of my customed Colts in quality and accuracy. I'm still breaking it in but at the 200 rd count, it's yet to boggle a feed or ejection cycle. Stainless steel for ease of mx in the back country, will use any good magazine...it's the best 1911 right out of the box that I've encountered (I'm 65 now and have shot the big 1911's since the early '60's).

Best Regards, Rodfac

Those are two, fine-looking items; both the pistol, and your target. The target goes to show that Unique is alive and well.

In another thread I saw another impressive 1911 group. Same bullet as yours, but using Win 231 propellant. So I began experimenting with 231 in my CZ 75B 40 S&W - and results were better than my similar loads with Unique.

As for the pistol: You mention stainles steel, but it sure doesn't look like it. Has Ruger somehow treated the SS to mute it down? I sure like it.

I want one! Alas, I live in The People's Republik of Californika, where many a fine handgun is not listed as legal for sale here - including the SR1911. Grrrrr.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
108 Posts
Discussion Starter #128
hell my $195 Hi point Shoots 3" groups at 15 yards, never shot it at 25 yards, being 3" or 2" @ 25 yards is a pretty hard shot to do. either way your still in the sweet spot, Even a 4" group @ 25 yards is very acceptable by most peoples standards. am i right?
If we're talking about the same Hi Point - they are intriguing guns. Unlike all the other 9s, 40s & 45s, the Hi Points are blow-back operated - as opposed to recoil operated.

That's the way they keep costs down. To pull it off, they had to use much heavier slides and recoil springs. But if they work reliably, and that heavy slide doesn't make the gun cumbersome, well, that's quite an accomplishment.

As for their accuracy... If they truly are blow-back designs, that introduces the possibility of using fixed barrels, though I don't know whether they actually do that. (In recoil operated auto-loaders, the barrel has to start locked up to the slide, then either drop from the slide or rotate to accept the next round. That's one area where a lot of auto-loaders lose out on accuracy - and a reason revolvers are often more accurate.)

So how does your Hi Point feel to you? Balanced when fully loaded? Or still a little top-heavy?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
108 Posts
Discussion Starter #129
It is hard to beat a 1911 for 45 acp. I have had several versions of the Colt over the years. I have also had a Ruger P90 that was a reliable and accurate pistol as well. The only 45 I have right now is a S&W 645. This is a nice double action pistol and is plenty accurate for a defensive pistol. I am looking forward to getting my hands on the new Ruger SR1911. All the experts that have reviewed the SR1911 have raved about how good it is.
Thanks for the introduction to the Colt 645. I didn't know what it was, but I see it's a 1911-looking pistol. But with double action? Interesting. How is the trigger once the hammer is cocked? Would you say it's on par with other 1911 SA triggers?

Ah, the question may be moot: I looked it up on Davidson's Gun Genie and the 645 isn't even listed. Out of production?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
108 Posts
Discussion Starter #130 (Edited)
hell my $195 Hi point Shoots 3" groups at 15 yards, never shot it at 25 yards, being 3" or 2" @ 25 yards is a pretty hard shot to do. either way your still in the sweet spot, Even a 4" group @ 25 yards is very acceptable by most peoples standards. am i right?
I forgot to address part of your post. For me, at least, a 25 yard shot with a handgun is darned hard. There seem to be others good enough to pull it off - and hold 2" groups. I have no idea if they can do that free-hand - or if they have to use a bench rest or sand bags.

If I could shoot 4" groups at 25 yards I'd get a fat head in a hurry.

Still, the fact that there are guns out there that can hold 2" at 25 yards makes me want one. I'm always happiest if the gun can shoot better than I can.

The reverse is also true. My Ruger P89 (9mm) cannot shoot as well as I can - not under any circumstances. It's a very disappointing gun and the reason that, although many rave about the P90/P95, I don't quite trust Ruger auto-loaders.

Anyway, my latest acquisition has really raised my bar for accuracy. It's a CZ 75B in 40 S&W Cal. Using a good bench rest, I'm able to hold groups to 3/4" at ten yards. The only other handguns I have that can do that - or better - are my Ruger KGP-141 (357 Mag, 4" barrel) and my new Ruber 22/45. Talk about tack-drivers!

At longer ranges, my eyesight gets in the way. I can have a crisp sight picture, or I can have a crisp target. But my eyes will not allow me to have it both ways. It's hell getting older. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
108 Posts
Discussion Starter #131
please test drive a Springfield XD .45 ACP tactical, it will leave you smiling!! its the obvious pick!
I have given the Springfield XD 45 a test drive. It belongs to a friend and I had the pleasure of shooting it quite a bit.

There is a lot to like about the XD; no question about it:

  • I love the bang for the buck. You get quite a well-made pistol at a bargain price.
  • I like its ergonomics. It fits my hand almost as well as my CZ 75b but, being plastic-framed, feels a litle top-heavy compared to the all-steel CZ.
  • I like its availability in various sizes.
  • I like its multiple safety features.
The only three things I don't like are:
  • It's trigger. It feels like mush compared to my CZ and many a 1911 I've shhot. Which is probably what leads to..
  • Less than stellar accuracy. When I was shooting it at 15 yards, all my groups were at least 4 inches; sometimes a little bigger. It's owner has shot it a lot more than I have - but he can do no better.
  • Its polygonal rifling. Glock uses it too, and sternly warns to not shoot lead bullets. Springfield isn't explicit about that, but I've heard that it, too, doesn't "like" lead. Well, I reload and cast my own bullets. I love shooting lead.
I would say the XD is a superb "service," or "combat" pistol - but not up to match-level accuracy - which is one of the things I want.
 

·
Retired Moderator & Gunsmith
Joined
·
15,995 Posts
soldernut, Not that it matters much but there is no such thing as a "recoil operated" pistol. The only recoil operated gun I have ever seen is JMB's Browning A5 shotgun design and copies. With recoil operated guns, the barrel thrusts back and the receiver is stationary. Any gun with a slide is not recoil operated. There are three pistol operating systems ... straight blow back, delayed blow back, and gas operated. Desert Eagles are the only popular pistols that are gas operated.

Straight blow back designs are typically used with 22 lr, 32 ACP, 380 ACP, and some 9mms. With straight blow back designs, chamber/barrel pressure thrusts the slide or bolt back. Delayed blow back designs (also invented by JMB) are typical in 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP. The difference is ... delayed blow back uses some sort of barrel-to-slide lock that keeps the barrel locked in position until the bullet exits the barrel, at which time the lugs unlock and the slide is thrust to the rear. The JMB designed 1905 Colt (predecessor to the 1911) was the first popular pistol to use delayed blow back and has lugs on top of the barrel that lock into a set of lugs in the slide. Ruger and most other companies also use delayed blow back in their pistols only their "lock" is either a "cam block" that is located under the barrel or a chamber block on top that locks into the slide ... same concept, different application. Some cheap pistols in larger calibers use a straight blow back design. Although they do work, it requires a very strong recoil spring and makes pulling the slide back a major effort.

If you field strip your CZ75, you will see the same exact lock lugs as a 1911. The lock lugs have very little to do with accuracy ... it's mostly the barrel bushing and the way the rear hood of the barrel (behind the chamber) locks into the slide. CZ uses a pressed in (non-removable) bushing that is fitted to the barrel for minimal clearance ... much like a National Match grade 1911 bushing, which is why CZs are so darn accurate. Ruger P-guns do not have a barrel bushing ... rather they just have a hole in the slide for the barrel. It's common to see the front of P-gun barrels flop around, which is why accuracy is not match grade.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
991 Posts
Find yourself a good used or factory reconditioned SIG220. or if you can lay your hands on a good 1911 either should serve you well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
991 Posts
liberalsmakemepuke - from captain obvious,

I paid $1569, wich is not far from the $1300 that a decent springfield, kimber, and any other mediocre 1911 gun maker charges. If you want a 1911 (that is totally reliable) style 45 you will pay. The question is, Do you want to pay on the front end or the back end? Les Baer TRS is the cheapest available IMHO. Ruger stays away from the 1911 market for a reason. It cost $$$ with hands on manufacturing to make a "reliable" 1911. Besides! Show me a woman that costs less than 1200-2500$! My wife costs much much more than that! I own four guns. Les Baer TRS, Kahr K9 elite 2003, Glock 19, and a Ruger SP101. Don't fault me for choosing quality over quantity!
Quantity has a quality all it's own:D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
108 Posts
Discussion Starter #135
soldernut, Not that it matters much but there is no such thing as a "recoil operated" pistol. The only recoil operated gun I have ever seen is JMB's Browning A5 shotgun design and copies. With recoil operated guns, the barrel thrusts back and the receiver is stationary. Any gun with a slide is not recoil operated. There are three pistol operating systems ... straight blow back, delayed blow back, and gas operated. Desert Eagles are the only popular pistols that are gas operated.

[sn] Thank your for the correction. The fault is mine for adopting what is probably an innacurte colloquialism -recoil operated.

Straight blow back designs are typically used with 22 lr, 32 ACP, 380 ACP, and some 9mms. With straight blow back designs, chamber/barrel pressure thrusts the slide or bolt back. Delayed blow back designs (also invented by JMB) are typical in 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP. The difference is ... delayed blow back uses some sort of barrel-to-slide lock that keeps the barrel locked in position until the bullet exits the barrel, at which time the lugs unlock and the slide is thrust to the rear. The JMB designed 1905 Colt (predecessor to the 1911) was the first popular pistol to use delayed blow back and has lugs on top of the barrel that lock into a set of lugs in the slide. Ruger and most other companies also use delayed blow back in their pistols only their "lock" is either a "cam block" that is located under the barrel or a chamber block on top that locks into the slide ... same concept, different application. Some cheap pistols in larger calibers use a straight blow back design. Although they do work, it requires a very strong recoil spring and makes pulling the slide back a major effort.

[sn] That was my understanding of the 9mm, 40 Cal, and 45 ACP pistols by Hi Point. Straight blow-back accomplished with a heavy slide and very stiff recoil spring.

If you field strip your CZ75, you will see the same exact lock lugs as a 1911. The lock lugs have very little to do with accuracy ... it's mostly the barrel bushing and the way the rear hood of the barrel (behind the chamber) locks into the slide. CZ uses a pressed in (non-removable) bushing that is fitted to the barrel for minimal clearance ... much like a National Match grade 1911 bushing, which is why CZs are so darn accurate.

[sn] I'd always thought the locking lugs played a larger role in keeping the barrel and slide "locked up" until the bullet exits. I do understand the value of a well-fitted barrel bushing. Just curious; In a project to accurize a 1911, would a well-fitted bushing be one of the first improvements?

I can certainly attest to the CZs accuracy. Until I'd spent some time with mine, I was always doubtful that an autoloader could be that accurate (expepting match grade 1911s).

Ruger P-guns do not have a barrel bushing ... rather they just have a hole in the slide for the barrel. It's common to see the front of P-gun barrels flop around, which is why accuracy is not match grade.
My Ruger P89 is certainly an example of what you describe. That barrel/slide fit is loosey goosey and the gun in incapable of anything better than 4" groups at ten yards - and that's on a good day.

It baffles me that Ruger can build such fine revolvers, but fall all over themselves when it comes to auto-loaders.

I wonder if you'd comment on slide/barrel fit on Glock, Springfield XD, and S&W M&P pistols.

I'd also be interested in your thoughts on the Beretta PX-4 Storm's rotating barrel arrangement.

Thanks.
 

·
Retired Moderator & Gunsmith
Joined
·
15,995 Posts
soldernut, With any semi-auto pistol, the tighter the barrel is held in position, the better the potential for accuracy. Fortunately, 1911s are designed with a removable barrel bushing so it is very easy to accurize compared to other "bushingless" pistols. Yes, the first thing you should do with a 1911 for accurizing is to fit a National Match barrel bushing. These come with an undersized barrel hole and an oversized bayonet. As such, the bushing won't even start on the barrel so you have to hand hone the hole until the barrel just barely fits .... virtually no horizontal or vertical play. Next you have to fit the bushing bayonet to the slide by carefully filing the lug until is fits tight and requires a bushing wrench to rotate. Mathematically, each .001" of combined bushing play (slide-to-bushing plus barrel-to-bushing) can result in a 1/4" change in POI. It is very common to see at least .005" of combined bushing play in a standard production pistol so in theory, the tightest group the pistol is capable of shooting would be 1.25" .... just from the bushing fit.

The same concept holds true for the rear of the barrel. 1911 barrels have a "hood" that fits in a slot in the slide. When you buy a National Match barrel, the hood is oversized and must be carefully filed to fit snug in the slide slot. Again, most production pistols will have .005" or more of rear barrel slack, which also contributes the same change in POI. NM barrels have tighter chambers and very uniform bores, which also adds to the accuracy potential. The standard for accuracy in production 1911s is 2.5" @ 25 yards from a Ransom Rest. As you can see, just fitting a NM bushing can cut the group size in half.

Lock lugs are a bit deceiving. Their purpose is to prevent the barrel from releasing until the bullet exits the muzzle. A tight fit has very little influence on accuracy but a loose fit certainly will. With 1911s, barrel links comes in 5 different lengths .... the longer the link, the tighter the lugs will fit, however if the link is too long, the slide will not go into full battery or will bind on the lugs as the barrel is lifted into position. If the link is too short, the slide may break loose from the barrel during recoil and literally scatter groups. The optimum fit is the longest link that will allow the slide to go to full battery without binding on the lugs. Typically, this will not be a tight fit between the barrel lugs and the slide lugs. Lock lugs will allow the barrel to move forward or rearward a few thousandths, which has minimal influence on accuracy compared to vertical or horizontal barrel movement from a poor bushing or barrel fit.

With XDs, and S&Ws ... you get what you get ... meaning you may get lucky and get a pistol with a very snug barrel-to-slide fit .... maybe not .... so it would be impossible to say all are good or all are bad, just like Rugers. Glocks are typically made to much tighter standards than other brands. My G-35 is tight as a mouse's ear ... barely over .001". It is also the most accurate 40 S&W I have ever fired.

A rotating barrel is just a reinvention of the wheel ... another way to lock the barrel. I don't think they are any better or any worse than lock lugs ... just different. If they were really an improvement over lock lugs, you would see rotating barrels on many other models.

I agree with your assessment of Ruger pistols ... with SR1911s and Mark Series pistols being an exception. My guess is it would take too many man hours (thus a higher cost) to precision fit barrels to slides. Unless standards were held as tight as Glocks, it would also be a problem with barrel replacement. No doubt ... a production cost factor.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
I had a Kahr CW45 that fits your bill.....affordable.....dependable.....accurate.....concealable. Alas, I sold mine in order to fund the Kimber Compact Stainless II, but I was very pleased with it while it was mine.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
108 Posts
Discussion Starter #139
I had a Kahr CW45 that fits your bill.....affordable.....dependable.....accurate.....concealable. Alas, I sold mine in order to fund the Kimber Compact Stainless II, but I was very pleased with it while it was mine.
Congratulations on the Kimber.

While I was shopping, I did look over the Kahr offerings. Very nice looking pistols; great fit and finish. But I didn't think I'd ever be able to make peace with the long, stiff, trigger pull.

I think you'll agree that your new Kimber's trigger is a major improvement.
 
121 - 139 of 139 Posts
Top