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I've read where it is unsafe to down load H110 below published start/min. charges. I've also read that H110 and W296 are the same. How is it that Hornadys 8th says 17.9 to 21.7 for a 300 grn XTP using W296 and Lee says 21.8 to 22.2 for a 300 grn. jacketed bullet with H110? These are Ruger/TC loads for .45 Colt. Lee doesn't list W296 and Hornady doesn't list H110. Confusing to say the least. Anyone? Thanks.
 

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296/110 need pressures over non magnum pressure to be safe. Otherwise there is a possibility uneven combustion, which could cause a pressure spike.

Or so I have been told. Doesn't matter for me as I have not seen either on the shelves, and I only have a few ounces left.
 

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Yes, I've seen the data. In short, what I'm asking is... If W296 and H110 are the same, then why such a difference in in start/min. charges when it's been warned not to down load H110? IE: W296 start-17.9 H110 start-21.8
 

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same powder different label

H110 was the .30 carbine powder that won the war!!
but it wants full loads

lookie at one of John Linebaughs tier 3 colt loads

Bullet Powder Grs. Vel. CUP Powder Grs. Vel. CUP
310 cast H-110 21.5 1109 24,400 H-110 23.5 1316 32,000

Energy = Weight times Velocity Squared divided by 450395
gives us
1192 ftlbs of whompum
that should shoot lengthways thru a elk using a good firm cast bullet

ahhh the magic of H110 and a Ruger only load....

if you run the H110 up to 26gr (nice compressed load)
in one of Johns cylinders (he bores his to give much less room to swell the case) in a blackhawk
you get
1450fps and 1450ftlbs at 45,000 some odd psi!
i dont know what that would shoot thru
but im sure it will hurt:eek:
 

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296/110 need pressures over non magnum pressure to be safe. Otherwise there is a possibility uneven combustion, which could cause a pressure spike.

Or so I have been told. Doesn't matter for me as I have not seen either on the shelves, and I only have a few ounces left.
Every Cabelas I have been in lately has H110. Bought 4 pounds in Dundee MI over the weekend
 

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I have been reloading 45 LC for over 30 years. My loads are used in a Blackhawk. . My load is 24.0 gr to 26.0 gr of W296 with 240gr to 260 gr JHP. I apply a heavy rolled crimp. I have found W296 at gun shows and some LGS.
As was indicated earlier, W296 and H110 was developed for use with the 30 carbine cartridge. There was for a time on the CMP website the load used in 30 carbine ammo. It was 15.5 gr of W296 over 110 gr FMJ using either small rifle primers or small rifle magnum primers.
Also, as posted earlier never use less than the lowest powder charges as lower charges produce unpredictable results. I always use small rifle magnum primers when reloading 30 carbine ammo with W296 powder.
 

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I get a lot of my powder from the same LGS. I was there yesterday and they didn't have any H110 or W296 powder. There is a LGS in Carthage and a few LGS in Sanford and Fayetteville. You can find the powder at gun shows in Raleigh, Greensboro and Charlotte.


,
 

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Back to the original question, "Why do different sources cite different load minimums when they also warn against reducing too much.?"

Different ballistics labs using different guns, primers, cases and under different conditions can be expected to yield different results. Ballistics science may be exacting, but it is far from exact.

That's my take on it.

My advice, get all the published data you can find. Average it out, but give more credence to 1) the powder maker's data and 2) the bullet maker's data. Some loading manuals republish data from other labs. Give less credence to those (though they are reliable enough that you should not discount them entirely).

Ask (and research) your question in multiple different forums. It is an excellent question. You will also get different answers than you have found here. Average them out, too.

Lost Sheep
 

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I just wish someone could explain how less powder can produce more pressure.
All I hear is people repeating what they've read on the internet.

I've downloaded H110 and the only result was a couple of bullets stuck in the barrel, and erratic ignition. No magical blow ups.
One round sounded and recoiled like a 38 special, and next round was like a normal 454 Casull.

I was checking for stuck bullets after each shot and I could tell which shots stuck a bullet before checking the bore.
Lots and lots of unburned powder came out. Even complete big wads of partially ignited powder, in a great big solid clump.

I got about 2 grains (on average) below those magical minimums before I started having problems

I think the real danger is sticking a bullet in the bore and then firing another round behind it.
Maybe that's the real reason the gun blows up, and not excessive pressure caused by downloading H110?

Where does this mysterious pressure come from?

.
 

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H110 and 296 are not the same! They are very close but still not the same. The biggest issue with down loading is that these powders need to fill the case to burn properly! If not then the powder may not fully burn and cause stuck bullets or hang fires, also there is a possibility if the charge is too small for the ignition flame to actually burn across the length of the case igniting too much powder at one time causing dangerous over pressure.
If you must down load H110 or 296 then use a filler on top of the powder and make sure it is a compressed load so the powder and filler will not mix from handling!! As far as the difference in charge weights between different publishers they all do what they feel is safe based on their testing. All powders burn rate will vary some from lot to lot. Also the ambient temp will affect burn rate and pressure, what may be a very save load on a 40 deg day may be dangerous on a 90 deg day so the publishers must take all these variables into account and do what they feel is safe. My recommendation is to use the correct powder for the job and follow the published data.
 

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H110 is a lot like Blue Dot. You have to give it a good charge to make the powder burn. If you load light with H110 you are going to have a lot of powder left in the barrel. But when you get a certain amount of pressure H110 burns clean. When you read the reloading guide it clearly says H110 is for magnum loads.

Blue Dot has kept me in pistol powder all through the shortage. Blue Dot is really a shotgun powder but it is versatile. I can load anything from 10ga goose loads to 9mm SD loads but much like H110 no matter what you load you have to crank up the pressure.
 

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The October 2015 issue of Handloader Magazine has an article about this very subject titled "Different Batches, Same Powder" and testing lot to lot variances.

There's a lot of information about how different lots of the same powder can differ quite a bit, as well as differences that come about from the "same" powder being made in different factories, and how it is sometimes dealt with by blending older lots with newer lots to keep the burn rate within the acceptable window.
 

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Maybe I can help .... it does get confusing when you compare loads in different manuals.

1. H-110 / W-296 are basically the same powder ... close enough where data is interchangeable. These are very slow burning powders designed specifically for magnum loads. It takes about 15 inches of bullet travel to get a complete burn so barrel length will make a huge difference in velocity. If a specific load was tested with a 6" barrel and you chronograph the same identical load in your 4" ... or 7 1/2" revolver, no doubt you won't even be close to "book velocity".

2. The things in a load itself that specifically affect velocity and chamber pressure are: Different brands of bullets where the weight is the same but the shape is different. This will result in a different bullet seating depth and in turn will change the internal volume of the cartridge. Cases can make a token change in velocity. Primers .... specifically using a Standard primer when a Magnum primer is specified (or visa versa) can change pressure and velocity quite a bit.

3. Nearly all "magnum" handguns are revolvers that are notorious for having different specs which directly affect velocity. In other words, you could have two revolvers with the same length barrels firing the same exact ammo and get notably different velocities .... up to 10% different. Bore diameter, forcing cone shape, B/C gap, cylinder throat diameter, and the cylinder's chamber dimensions all affect chamber pressure and velocity.

4. The primary reason for "DO NOT REDUCE" warnings for H-110 or W-296 is SQUIBS and here's why: These powders tend to burn in a "serial" manner, which means the primer flash will ignite the first layer of powder kernels and in turn, those kernels ignite the next layer of kernels, which ignite the next layer until all powder is finally ignited. This works exactly like a fuse where any air gap or void between kernels will cause ignition to cease ... or at least stall until other touching kernels ignite it. A stall results in multiple pressure peaks .... not good for accuracy but not specifically dangerous. If powder ceases to light up the next layer of kernels .... basically the fire goes out ... just like a cut fuse and you end up with a squib where the bullet gets stuck in the bore. Squibs happen way more in colder weather and almost always at initial ignition.

5. How can a reduced charge increase chamber pressure? Here's how: Let's assume a typical water bottle represents a cartridge where the end with the bottle cap is the primer and the water represents the powder. If the water bottle is nearly full, water will collect at the primer end and will ignite in a "serial" manner. Lay a half full water bottle flat horizontally and look at it. A much larger area of water surface is now exposed to the primer flash. This can cause the powder to ignite in a parallel manner, which will raise chamber pressures to very high levels. In other words, it turns a slow burning powder into a very fast burning powder and increases chamber pressure dramatically. The safe standard to prevent excess pressure and prevent squibs is to load to at least 75% of case capacity .... 80% is better.

6. All loads in reputable reloading manuals are pressure tested and do not exceed SAAMI specs, however nothing says a "max load" in a specific reloading manual is actually at SAAMI max pressure ..... in fact all listed loads are well below SAAMI industry maximum levels for several obvious reasons. Each company decides on what margin of safety they need to maintain and may be radically different from one brand of manual to another.

7. The last issue is SAAMI itself ... in 1993, they lowered the specs for chamber pressure in 357, 41, and 44 Mags so some older manuals and Internet data sources still reflect old data. Easy to tell ... if pressure is rated in psi, it's the new pressure standards .... if it is rated in CUP, it's the old pressure standards.

Just a note .... I have been using H-110 / W-296 powders for at least 30 years. I have never found another magnum powder that delivers low max velocity spreads (typically under 25 fps) and exceptional accuracy in 357 Mag, 41 Mag, and 44 Mag ammo. I always load near the top of the charts, which is still well below SAAMI max pressures. I always use Magnum primers or Winchester WLPs (made for Standard or Magnum loads). Remember a very important issue ... assuming the same velocity and bullet, slow burning powders will always produce lower chamber pressures than faster burning powder. This very fact makes H-110 or W-296 exceptional for revolvers with longer barrels out to rifle length barrels. With barrel lengths under 4", there are other powders that are better suited. About the only negative thing about H-110 / W-296 is the muzzle flash ... at night it looks like a 4 foot flame thrower.
 

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Winchester does not make powder any more.
Hodgdon makes all of the powder for Winchester in Shawnee, MO.
H110 and WW296 are exactly the same powder.
 

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Barnydaddy, Close ... but no cigar. Saint Marks Powder, a division of General Dynamics located in Florida has made both W-296 and H-110 powder since it was invented. At least it is American made!!

It really doesn't make any different where H-110 / W-296 is made ... or who makes it. The two powders are virtually identical even though they have slightly different specs. As I stated before ... the two are close enough where you can safely interchange reloading data. As for the OP's question, I don't see how this matters.
 

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If You Can Read, Read This:

Barnydaddy, Close ... but no cigar. Saint Marks Powder, a division of General Dynamics located in Florida has made both W-296 and H-110 powder since it was invented. At least it is American made!!

It really doesn't make any different where H-110 / W-296 is made ... or who makes it. The two powders are virtually identical even though they have slightly different specs. As I stated before ... the two are close enough where you can safely interchange reloading data. As for the OP's question, I don't see how this matters.

Read This:

Our History
 

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Winchester does not make powder any more.
Hodgdon makes all of the powder for Winchester in Shawnee, MO.
H110 and WW296 are exactly the same powder.
Hodgdon doesn't MAKE powder at all.........they simply package and sell it.

This is WELL known...........don't believe it, call them and ask them. There are very few actual "makers" of gun powder worldwide and Hodgdon is NOT one
 
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