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I've been busy this past week; the rains tamped down homicidal violence for a while, but now it's gotten to "cabin fever" time and the shootings, knifings and bludgeonings have headed back to their normal levels.

Which brings me to the two contestants I saw a week ago (while the rains were still falling). We got a radio call that two ambulances were inbound, each carrying a gunshot wound patient and accompanied by deputies who would like to get statements, if at all possible.

The story, as it later came out, was that these two gents were having a business discussion at about 10PM in the parking lot of a closed Chinese restaurant when things "got out of hand". It still isn't clear what the disagreement was about, but since both men were known to be in the retail illicit drug trade, some assumptions could be made.

At some point in the negotiations, one of the men drew a pistol, which prompted the other man to draw his pistol, as well. The jury - quite literally - is still out on which one drew first, but it seems that both of them drew at near enough the same time that it made no practical difference.

One man was armed with a .45 ACP pistol; he got off at least three shots (three cases were found) and scored one hit - in his opponent's left upper arm. The other man was armed with a .32 ACP and got off only one shot before the pistol jammed. That one shot, however, entered the other man's right eye, punched through the thin bone at the back of the eye socket, and bounced around inside the skull for a bit.

Want to guess who "won"?

The point is that no matter what the muzzle energy or Taylor's index, the "stopping power" of a hand-held firearm often depends more on bullet placement than on bullet diameter. A flesh wound with a .454 Casull has less "stopping power" than a hit to the the brain from a .25 ACP.

Now, before I get flaming comments from the BBBP (Brotherhood of Big Bore Pistoleers), it is true that given hits in the same location, the bigger, more powerful round will have more "stopping power", and if "contestant number two" had the same luck or skill as his opponent, they both would have ended up as prospective organ donors.

Still, if you want to get the most out of a large caliber handgun, you need to practice with it until you can reliably hit your target at gunfight distances. Just carrying a "big stick" isn't enough; you have to know how to use it.



Jim
 

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I don't subscribe to bigger is better.

I believe it's bullet placement, not caliber that means anything. People think the little .22 is a wuss. But if it's such a wimp, then they should look back in history as to what it's capable of. Some groups overseas use it as an assassination weapon. With great effect I might add. Not to mention, Reagen was almost killed by one as well.

It isn't the size that matters folks.. It's how you use it that counts.
 

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Another gem.....Keep 'em coming!
 

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If the dead guy got off 3 shots & the other guy only only fired once, then I'd say that's pretty darn good evidence that the dead guy drew and shot 1st, especially since his wound was not only fatal but almost certainly instantly incapacitating as well. And since it looks like only other witness is dead, there isn't anybody to challenge the survivor's version of the story. That's *plenty* of reasonable doubt . . . at least about the shooting incident.
 

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this thread has reassured me on so many levels... thanks, now i have to go have a chat with the wife...
 

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Hey I'll bite I'll take a 45 over a 32 any day. I doubt if I could hit the eye consistently under stress. Center mass with a big ugly bullet. The perp that won can regale the other inmates with tales of his miracle shot. He should gain some status with the others unless one of them knew the deceased.

I wonder if either of them held their weapon sideways?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
If the dead guy got off 3 shots & the other guy only only fired once, then I'd say that's pretty darn good evidence that the dead guy drew and shot 1st, especially since his wound was not only fatal but almost certainly instantly incapacitating as well. And since it looks like only other witness is dead, there isn't anybody to challenge the survivor's version of the story. That's *plenty* of reasonable doubt . . . at least about the shooting incident.
If I were the DA, that's how I'd see it. There's always the chance that the guy with the .32 went for his gun first, but there's only one witness left and I'd be willing to bet I know how he'll testify.


Hey I'll bite I'll take a 45 over a 32 any day. I doubt if I could hit the eye consistently under stress. Center mass with a big ugly bullet. The perp that won can regale the other inmates with tales of his miracle shot. He should gain some status with the others unless one of them knew the deceased.

I wonder if either of them held their weapon sideways?
No argument here - I always pack the biggest gun I can conceal. However, I practice with all of them on a regular basis, so I can hit center of mass with all of them (under range conditions, shooting against a timer). I suspect that neither of these guys spent a lot of time at the range.

Last I heard, the "winner" will be going back to the slammer for violation of his parole, felon in possession of a firearm, possession of a controlled substance with intent to distribute and a warrant for assault with a deadly weapon. By the way, this guy was last in prison for a "non-violent drug offense", just like the 6,000 that Obama released from Federal prison.


Jim
 

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But, a large caliber to the upper arm might make the inoperable. Just bad luck the other guy wasn't left handed :p

I carry everything from a .380 to .45. Used to have a .32, but work says .380 or bigger, so I comply. I'm comfortable with any of them and know I can control them. Not so sure about a .454.

Would be curious what kind of .32 the winner had, being that it jammed up. Curious if it was ammo related, weapon related, shooter related, or maintenance. Just because I'm always curious.
 

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Doesn't matter what caliber you shoot if you can't ... "shoot," ... well, if you can't aim. ;)
 

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Hey I'll bite I'll take a 45 over a 32 any day. I doubt if I could hit the eye consistently under stress. Center mass with a big ugly bullet. The perp that won can regale the other inmates with tales of his miracle shot. He should gain some status with the others unless one of them knew the deceased.

I wonder if either of them held their weapon sideways?
Had to think on you last statement...

I wonder what gun did the driver have and what did the passenger have?
Its tough to work with a steering wheel in your lap
 

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I don't subscribe to bigger is better.

I believe it's bullet placement, not caliber that means anything. People think the little .22 is a wuss. But if it's such a wimp, then they should look back in history as to what it's capable of. Some groups overseas use it as an assassination weapon. With great effect I might add. Not to mention, Reagen was almost killed by one as well.

It isn't the size that matters folks.. It's how you use it that counts.
Anytime a discussion starts about caliber, someone posts how great a man stopper the 22 is. Walking up and assassinating someone with a 22 is very effective. How effective is it when someone is shooting back at you with a 45 ? Anyone can get lucky and place a 22 round into a vital area. Is it a one shot stopper? Sure... it can be. But it takes perfect shot placement to be an effective one shot stopper. It also doesn't have the power to incapacitate on energy alone, like many larger caliber cartridges can. Sometimes a shooter gets lucky, and penetrates deeply enough to hit something vital with a 22. Your chances of doing that are much greater with a larger, more powerful cartridge.

The shooter with the 32 acp in the first post, got very lucky, or was very skilled. If small caliber cartridges were as effective as some people think, police, and military units all over the world would carry them, but none do.
 

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damn fine shot, through the eye while a big bore semi-auto is cycling rounds in your direction.
Don't know if I could do that regardless of skill at the range.

Or, as posted above, luck won out over both caliber and skill
 

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With any luck. The survivor has a criminal record and they can charge him with unlawful possession of a firearm. Maybe at his sentencing, the judge will thank him for taking care of the trash.
I raither hit a critical area with a small caliber bullet than hit a non critical area with a large caliber bullet. Just reinforces practice, practice, practice.
 

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Even a blind squirrel can sometimes find an acorn! :D

On the other hand, if he had not gotten lucky with his first shot with the .32, the .45 shooter might have finally gotten lucky.

And as for what failed; the gun, ammo or shooter. My guess is a combination of all of the above. I can't imagine one of these thugs ever sitting down and cleaning or maintaining a gun. The ammo probably came from wherever they could steal it. And practice, you mean posing in front of my mirror isn't enough?
 

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Aw dang! I was thinking this was going to turn into another infamous 9mm vs .45ACP debate. I guess I love those debates because my .357 with hot defense loads beats them both! :cool:

When it comes to the .25ACP and .32ACP cartridges, the only thought that comes to my mind is "well, it's better than nothing". As others have pointed out, it IS shot placement that is key. It don't matter if you have a 9mm or a .500 S&W Mag. Don't hit vital areas, your target aint going down.

I'm not trying to tell everyone what they should and shouldn't use, but rather saying to use whatever works FOR YOU! If you're more comfortable carrying a sub-compact Glock over a full sized M1911, then go for it.
 

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damn fine shot, through the eye while a big bore semi-auto is cycling rounds in your direction.
Don't know if I could do that regardless of skill at the range.

Or, as posted above, luck won out over both caliber and skill

I'd be willing to bet it was luck rather than skill.

I've seen surveillance video of these sorts of "shoot-outs" and it's not uncommon for one of the shooters to have their head turned away from who they're shooting at. Shooting blindly over or around obstacles is also common. That probably accounts, at least in part, for the high percentage of hits on bystanders.



Jim
 

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until a large caliber miss causes injury from shrapnel or concussive shock waves, i prefer to enjoy practicing alot with a piece that i can comfortably carry and shoot well.
 

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Pure luck. Just like a guy picked from the audience, hit a half-court shot and won a brand new car although he never played basketball before.
 
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