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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I asked over at the AR15 forum about how reliable the rifle length gas system was, and quite a few said theirs were reliable so I decided to put one together. Using the Voodoo barrel, it arrived today and I finished assembling the rifle. I'll call this my sniper rifle, Zombie sniper rifle to be exact, as the extra 1/2" surely has to make it more accurate! But first I gotta see if it works at all....

Lower:
Tactical Machining Zombie lower
Anderson Buffer tube kit (weighed the buffer and it weighed 2.9 oz, so figured that was a plus for the rifle length gas system.)
PSA lower parts kit less FCG
RRA NM Varmint trigger

Upper:
Anderson 'Zombie Certified'
Anderson Charging handle
Anderson BCG with awesome Punisher logo
Voodoo 16.5" rifle length ultra light barrel
MI Gen 2 SS 15" FF hand guard
(temporarily a spike A2 flash hider)

Since this is the 'Zombie Sniper model' it wouldn't be complete without the Burris MTAC 4.5-14x42 scope mounted with a CCOP 30mm mount





So how's it shoot? I put 20 rounds through it this evening, perfect function from the get go. I started at 50 yards hoping to hit the paper, first shot was so close with no adjustments I decided to move back to 100 yards, made my adjustments and fired the second shot. Made yet another adjustment and fired the third shot. made another click right and one down and fired shots 4 through 8. That might be some of my best grouping, shots 4-8. Moved back to 200 yards for shots 9 and 10. I was using a gen3 10 round pmag. Loaded up another 10 rounds and shot my 12" plate at 300 yards with ease. I REALLY like this rifle length gas system!



I've seen people map out the groups to determine MOA, I was wondering if someone could do that with shots 4-8? I say 4-8 because I didn't adjust the scope after the 4th shot.
 

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crracer 712, Looks like you have a winner there!!! There are two primary ways to represent the MOA of a rifle. The most popular and simplest way is to measure from the center of the two widest holes. In other words, if the two widest holes are 1" apart, you have a 1 MOA group.

The second is an average of the shots fired. In this case you would measure from the center of each hole to the center of the target. Add up all measurements then divide by the number of shots. This will give you the average group size and is expressed as Average MOA (or inches). This method will always result in a smaller number than the first method and is a better prediction of your next shot. As an example, if you had an average group of 1", you could expect your next shot to be about 1" from the center of the bull. That means you could have one shot an inch high and another an inch low, which would average an inch but could actually be as much as two inches apart.

It would appear you 4th through 8th shots are no more than 3 bullet holes apart which would be about 3/4 MOA if you used the first method. That's some good shooting ... especially for a new build.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Well, that 4-8 group is probably my best ever. I've layed two overlapping many times, but the third always lands outside of the other two. I don't know if it's the scope or the barrel, but I liked it! I was using some Fioochi 223 soft points I picked up from midway USA awhile back.

When I asked about the rifle length gas system and reliability, some replied not if it's to be relied on. Others commented they had to drill out the gas port in the barrel, etc. I didn't do anything other than assemble it, ran a bore snake down the barrel twice after shooting some #9 in it, wiped the bolt down and applied some slip 2000 EWG on the bearing surfaces and lugs.

I'd never got so lucky as to have the first shot from a freshly mounted new scope land that close to center, quite often I don't even hit that target at 50 yards and I'll move to 25 yards just to get it on paper, adjust and move back to 50. It's my first Burris scope, I'm kind of a Nikon fan (great scope for the money IMO), but this Burris was on sale for ~230 at Cabelas about a month ago, so I bought it. I wish it had the turrets that my M223 has, but I'll live with it.
 

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"The Real Deal"
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Well, that 4-8 group is probably my best ever. I've layed two overlapping many times, but the third always lands outside of the other two. I don't know if it's the scope or the barrel, but I liked it! I was using some Fioochi 223 soft points I picked up from midway USA awhile back.

When I asked about the rifle length gas system and reliability, some replied not if it's to be relied on. Others commented they had to drill out the gas port in the barrel, etc. I didn't do anything other than assemble it, ran a bore snake down the barrel twice after shooting some #9 in it, wiped the bolt down and applied some slip 2000 EWG on the bearing surfaces and lugs.

I'd never got so lucky as to have the first shot from a freshly mounted new scope land that close to center, quite often I don't even hit that target at 50 yards and I'll move to 25 yards just to get it on paper, adjust and move back to 50. It's my first Burris scope, I'm kind of a Nikon fan (great scope for the money IMO), but this Burris was on sale for ~230 at Cabelas about a month ago, so I bought it. I wish it had the turrets that my M223 has, but I'll live with it.
I like it, nice setup.

I am still scratching my head at the rifle length gas systems deemed unreliable. I mean that makes no sense to me even on an ar forum. The rifle length is the original, the carbine came later on the stoner guns. If anything the shorter you go the more unreliable they get in reference to lets say a 7" barrel with a pistol length gas system. I have never had any problems with the rifle length, and I own 6 or 8 of them. I find the recoil pulse is lower on the 12" gas system versus the mid or carbine length which is due to the pressure per square inch or psi of the different lengths. I call foul on those guys, why I don't reside or visit the ar15 forum. Too many fanboy experts with no real knowledge of the words they spew. Just my own point of view.;)

Burris is a nice scope, I am also a nikon fan and own 5 to 1 compared to the burris, but my eliminator is an awesome scope atop my lr308. I recommend burris, and nikon. Also the vortex is a great optic of choice.
As for accuracy I would try some different ammo to see what it likes to eat. 40, 52, 55, 62, 69, 75, 77 grain their alot of possibilities. I would also say wait until you get a couple hundred rounds through it, you may very well see an improvement. I would say that mostly by 300 rounds my barrels have broken in and settle down printing groups. Also if you hand load you may be able to gain some accuracy as well, I developed rounds for most of my rifles with the smallest groups possible. Goodluck, and keep up the good work. ;)

Also you may or may not find an advantage to a compensator versus a flashider. GRG makes a great one for $30 on amazon. I have used several, they work great, and worth way more than they cost. They make staying on target easier with a scope and repeated fire, quickly. Only downside is the increase in blast. You also did well with the rra trigger, I run several probably 8 or 10, and they are the best in that price range.
 

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crracer 712, Your first sight-in shot may have been luck but whenever you get sub-MOA groups ... it's a lot more than luck. Everything has to be working in unison ... the ammo, the barrel, the scope, and most of all, the person squeezing the trigger. Some food for thought ... the best scope in the world will not shoot better groups than the gun or the shooter are capable of. The point is ... it's really a warm fuzzy when everything comes together ... a sub-MOA group anyone would be proud of.

I'm a Nikon fan too but I have a Burris Full Field II on my Remy 700. This is an older scope that was made in the US. The newer Burris FF IIs are made in the Philippines and are every bit as good as the US made scopes. My FF II is a 3.5~10x50mm mounted on a cheap Remington 700 ADL with a Boyd's stock. This gun amazes me every time I shoot it ... especially considering it is a cheap, no frills ADL. Groups with factory 223 Rem 55gr ammo are under 1 MOA and with my handloads ... 26.5gr of Varget and a 55gr Hornady A-Max bullet, it is literally a one holer at 100 yards .... a serious prairie dog killing machine. A few weeks ago, my friend and I were at the farm shooting plastic spoons that we stabbed in the ground handle first. At 200 yards from a bench rest, I never missed a single one. It takes a 1/2 MOA gun to accomplish this feat.

Here's my Remy:
 

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Righteous Dude
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I like the build and the accuracy. I've been thinking about building an AR using a pencil barrel. Faxon has my attention, but yours is a tempting route. Really well done!
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Good stuff all.

Tacky, you mentioned all three optics brands I own. and like you I'm 5 to 1, 5 Nikon (counting the P22 on my 15-22) and the Burris. As for Vortex, in the past I've tried to love a red dot, but my eyes are just bad so I tend to scope most thing. Midway had a great price awhile back on the Vortex Strikefire II so I wanted to try a somewhat quality red dot. I couldn't find any info about it being parallax free, but from my shooting, I'd guess it must be because I shot it starting at 25 meters and it appeared to me that if the dot was on target, I hit it, not matter where my head movement placed the dot in the sight (I didn't go full on extreme, but my previous experience was having to make sure the dot was centered...)

Iowegan, I was kinda surprised to see the MTAC was a Philippian made scope, wasn't an issue for me, all my Nikon scopes are and they've all been good. At the time of the sale when I bought the MTAC, they also had the C4 I believe it was, for the same price and it appears to be setup real similar to my M223 and apparently it came with an offer for a set of custom turrets (I do reload, and I'll have to get around to reloading for this particular rifle, probably start with my favorite reload that I use with one of my other AR's). There wasn't any real rhyme or reason why I chose the MTAC over the C4 other than the C4 had the same reticle as my M223 (I like variety) and the list price was more on the MTAC so I felt I was saving even more by buying it for the same money.

On the up side, this MTAC, it's turrets are rated in mRad, which I know nothing about, I adjusted as normal and need to read up on this mRad vs MOA. I know mRad is metric and if I delve in to it to much my mind is going to wonder as I generally just want to pull the trigger and hit what I am aiming at...

Neon, Here is a rifle I assembled the day before, lol, along with a target I sighted in at from 50 yards. It's the first rifle I used a Faxon barrel from, it's the light weight pencil mid length. I just shot it as is with the Magpul sights, but liked it well enough I am sure it's gonna end up with a scope on it.




The lower is an Anderson lower, Spikes buffer tube kit with heavy buffer, mil spec trigger (from one of my other factory rifles), Anderson BCG. Upper is also Anderson, Faxon 16" pencil barrel 4150 QPQ (they also have a stainless version), UTG Pro 15" hand guard (I went cheap here and I don't regret it, the barrel nut and locking system is the best I've ever seen, beats Midwest Industries hands down), and a Manimal flash hider (which is the same flash hider I will be putting on the 'zimbie; rifle).

I forgot to mention, on the Zombie rifle, I use a Yankee Hill low pro gas block, on the rifle pictured here I used Spikes for the gas block and gas tube. I like the spikes gas block better, it has a slimmer base. With the Yankee Hill, there is probably 1-2mm between the lower corners of the gas block and the MI Gen2 SS hand guard. And to make matters worse, on the Zombie rifle, with the Yankee Hill gas bock, I used the Voodoo rifle length gas tube and I didn't pay particular attention to the roll pin hole alignment. I stuck a punch through, thought it was good, then I drove the roll pin in only to find out the hole doesn't line up perfectly so the roll pin doesn't go through the gas block on both sides, it's started on the second side, but it so tight, it won't go any further. I'll probably end up replacing the YH gas block, but for now, it's functioning fine.



My sight in started at the top left. The top two that are singled out to the upper left are my first two shots with adjustments made after 1st shot and second shot, no other adjustments were made. I'd love to throw out that lower hole, but alas, I am surprised I didn't get more of those cause I'm just not that good with open sights and my bad eyes. BTW, that's a full box of 20 rounds there. I credit the UTG rail and the way it mounts for being so close to zero from the get go. I've got the two MI Gen 2 SS FF hand guards and I typically have to adjust windage a lot more when using those rail, they just can't mate with the upper the way the UTG can (on the plus side, the UTG Pro is made in the USA!)
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
crracer 712, Your first sight-in shot may have been luck but whenever you get sub-MOA groups ... it's a lot more than luck. Everything has to be working in unison ... the ammo, the barrel, the scope, and most of all, the person squeezing the trigger. Some food for thought ... the best scope in the world will not shoot better groups than the gun or the shooter are capable of. The point is ... it's really a warm fuzzy when everything comes together ... a sub-MOA group anyone would be proud of.

I'm a Nikon fan too but I have a Burris Full Field II on my Remy 700. This is an older scope that was made in the US. The newer Burris FF IIs are made in the Philippines and are every bit as good as the US made scopes. My FF II is a 3.5~10x50mm mounted on a cheap Remington 700 ADL with a Boyd's stock. This gun amazes me every time I shoot it ... especially considering it is a cheap, no frills ADL. Groups with factory 223 Rem 55gr ammo are under 1 MOA and with my handloads ... 26.5gr of Varget and a 55gr Hornady A-Max bullet, it is literally a one holer at 100 yards .... a serious prairie dog killing machine. A few weeks ago, my friend and I were at the farm shooting plastic spoons that we stabbed in the ground handle first. At 200 yards from a bench rest, I never missed a single one. It takes a 1/2 MOA gun to accomplish this feat.

Here's my Remy:
I love the Remington 700's! I don't know why I don't have one in 223. I used to have one in 243, the ex has that now... But I still have my beloved Walmart special 30-06 (I'll post a photo this evening of it). It too is an ADL, was my first 700 bought back in the 90's, beautiful blued barrel, polished bolt and one of the prettiest laminated wood stocks I've seen. I shot my first 6 deer with that rifle, kicks like a rented mule! Has no butt pad, just the remi plastic plate. I've told my gunsmith/ffl that I'm going to round up a pad for him to fit to it, but as of yet I haven't done it. I've got a Nikon (pro staff or field master, I'll have to look) 3-9x40 on it.

I didn't think a thing about zeroing a scope back then. I mounted it, went out and shot my first deer at my Grandma's and thought it was good. I've never missed a deer and never had one run off after a shot. About 5 years ago I got that rifle out and shot at a target, didn't hit it (was shooting at 100 yards), I had to move to 25 yards to get on paper! It was that bad.... You might wonder how I killed a deer with it, but I've been so lucky with the deer that I don't think I ever shot one over 30 yards away. My first deer was literally to my left after opening and closing the gate at the barn at my Grandma's. I just happened to look over by the cattle shed and silo and there is was, It was excitement and a let down all at the same time. I shot it off hand, broke it's spine clean in two right above the shoulders. I was about 30 yards away and attributed the high shot to being so close to it(scope being off never crossed my mind...) Anyway, my first deer hunt lasted about 5 minutes and that was that. I have yet to be out beyond 30 minutes before I shoot my deer (but then again, I'm not trophy hunting, I'm thinning the heard and stocking my freezer).
 

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"The Real Deal"
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Good stuff all.

Tacky, you mentioned all three optics brands I own. and like you I'm 5 to 1, 5 Nikon (counting the P22 on my 15-22) and the Burris. As for Vortex, in the past I've tried to love a red dot, but my eyes are just bad so I tend to scope most thing. Midway had a great price awhile back on the Vortex Strikefire II so I wanted to try a somewhat quality red dot. I couldn't find any info about it being parallax free, but from my shooting, I'd guess it must be because I shot it starting at 25 meters and it appeared to me that if the dot was on target, I hit it, not matter where my head movement placed the dot in the sight (I didn't go full on extreme, but my previous experience was having to make sure the dot was centered...)
)

Vortex also makes a great magnified optic, the viper, and diamondback. I have the 6x24x50 ffp pst illuminated Viper on my barrett 50 cal, its just as clear as my other nikon monarch 3's and burris eliminator II, it has 65moa of adjustment, and 30mm tube. They make great quality glass, and have a no questions asked lifetime warranty. They are half the price of the nightforce, or leupold mark 4, but not the quality, it will stand 50bmg, it doesn't get more punishing than that. The red dots are great as well, I have several of the strikefire first series, and have used the second series, all great optics on .223 and 308. Hits at 25 yards to 200 yards are fairly simple. I also own a few aimpoint comp 3's, eotech 512, and xps sights, as well as several primary arms micro dots, and a burris fastfire II. All have been great sights I would recommend depending application. Here is the magnified vortex I was reffering too.

Vortex Optics - Viper PST 6-24x50 FFP EBR-1<br />(MOA)

Vortex Optics - Diamondback 3.5-10x50 V-Plex
 

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crracer 712, Most of us grew up with the US standards of measurement ... inches, yards, etc. As such we tend to think in minutes of angle where one MOA spreads to 1.047 inches wide at 100 yards ... close enough to call 1 inch. This is derived by dividing a circle into 360 degrees then dividing each degree into 60 minutes. So, an MOA is really (60x360=21,600) 1/21,600 of a full circle. Most scopes adjust in 1/4 MOA increments ... or 1 click = 1/86,400 part of a full circle ....not the most convenient numbers for mental calculations.

The Europeans went a different and much more practical route ... using the metric system with meters. milrad is an abbreviation for milliradian but is commonly called "mil" or "mRad"... which simply means one radian divided by 1000. A milrad is also a unit of angular measurement but it is based on a triangle where two sides are 1000 meters long and the distant third side is 1 meter wide. Because all milrad units (mil) are in a decimal format, it's much easier to estimate distance or hold over. Snipers have been using milrad scopes since WWII where they had mil dot reticules ... spaced at precise horizontal and vertical intervals. Once you learn the simple math, it's very easy to compensate for wind drift, bullet drop, or to compute distance. NATO has standardized on the simplest system that works best with scopes or sights where 1 NATO mil = 3.375 MOA. Most scopes calibrated in mils have 10 clicks per mil at 100 meters whereas a scope calibrated in MOA will have 4 clicks per MOA at 100 yards. A meter is about 90% of a yard so when you do all the math .... 3.6 clicks for a milrad scope moves the bullet the same distance as 4 clicks for an MOA scope. At the range ... who cares, you just walk in your shots until they hit the bullseye.

I covered quite a bit about MOA in my Library article titled "Scope Dope" but didn't address MilRads much because most US shooters don't use them. Here's a link: http://rugerforum.net/library/61505-scope-dope.html
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·


2nd rifle I'd ever bought (technically third, I'd bought a Remington Viper 22 that was so unreliable, took it back for my first Ruger 10/22).
 

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Ontargetshooting.com, $12 to download the current version. It's kinda just a gadget, as you can do the same measurements by hand, but it's cheap and relatively easy to use.

Easiest way is to measure the largest outside spread of the two most disparate bullet holes, then subtract one bullet diameter.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
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