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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Does anyone have a setup like this. I'd like to know if this kind of setup is a legit configuration or if it falls in the tacticool category. My eyes are not getting any younger and shooting with open sights and red dots is a challenge but still fun and I intend to continue doing so in spite of my aging vision.

I kind of think I like the flexibility of a reflex over a scope. If you have tried this combo, share your experience.

 

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Does anyone have a setup like this. I'd like to know if this kind of setup is a legit configuration or if it falls in the tacticool category. My eyes are not getting any younger and shooting with open sights and red dots is a challenge but still fun and I intend to continue doing so in spite of my aging vision.

I kind of think I like the flexibility of a reflex over a scope. If you have tried this combo, share your experience.
It all depends on the level of accuracy you demand. While most scopes have crosshairs and/or dots that cover 1/4 MOA or less (about 1/4" at 100 yards) red dot scopes often have relatively large dots. 3 MOA is common. That means at 100 yards, the dot covers a 3" circle completely.

Like you, my 68 year old eyes need all the help they can get. However, I am primarily a varmint and paper shooter, so 3 MOA for me does not work. I have been on a binge of buying mid-quality scopes such as Weavers and Nikons with the occasional Leupold. A low powered Leupold scout scope would give you all that a red dot scope would except for illumination.

I suggest you try both options before deciding.

I mounted one of these to my Rossi Lever action 357 Mag. carbine. It worked great, especially at the price: Weaver 4x28 Classic Scout Scope - Weaver Riflescope FREE S&H 849417. Weaver Rifle Scopes.
 

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"The Real Deal"
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I do have a setup similar to that. I have a custom built 16" dpms .936 barrel, carbine gas system, with a bennie cooley comp. I have a nikon prostaff bdc 3x9x50 on it, and a burris fastfire II piggy backed on a set of weaver tactical 6 hole rings. The fastfire is 4moa, sighted at 25 yards, the scope 100 to 600. My original design was setup for coyote hunting, it gives the long range capability, and the up close capability as well. I really like the setup and it is useful, and doesn't add alot of extra weight. So if you need a dual sight setup, this is a very effective combination. I like the setup so well, every gun I scoped after that, I used the same rings with a 1913 top rail mount to allow the addition on a fastfire if I needed to without disturbing the already proven and sighted scope.

 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
This build was supposed to be a budget M4 clone but it turns out the 16" bbl barrel does not have the dimples needed to mount an A2 FSB. So that turned into a flip up YHM site. I like the sight profile so I'm not too disappointed. I already have a reflex site for it, just need a rear sight.

Anyway, this rifle is going to be a plinker. Just something to blow up gallon containers filled with water. I can do 50, maybe 75 yards with open sights okay, but any farther I'll need a little help Maybe a 1.5 x to 4 x variable power scope is the ticket. If I have to put my RDS on a riser, why not use a scope as a riser.
 

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IMO it falls into the tacticool category. I am a firm believer in the KISS principal and adding a reflex on top of a scope heads in a different direction. Way to high for any sort of cheek weld.
 

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IMO it falls into the tacticool category. I am a firm believer in the KISS principal and adding a reflex on top of a scope heads in a different direction. Way to high for any sort of cheek weld.
You know i thought the same thing, but I was wrong. Alot of guys use the fastfires on pistols, i have shot a amphibian ruger with one, no cheekweld needed to make hits easily up close. At distance the dot is too big to be accurate past 100 yards if sighted at that distance.

I am also a believe in kiss, I am also a believer in redundant systems. I usually run a set of buis with every optic, eotech, aimpoint, vortex etc. The fastfires back up is the nikon bdc and vice versa. It really does a great job no bs.;) Just my opinion.
 

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A sight set up like Tacky's makes more sense than the set up you originally pictured, and even then, it's usually quite limited in benefit - Adding $300 for a sight and base doesn't pay itself back, and if you do insist on a dual optic set up, you'll be more satisfied with a side mount red dot than a scope riding sight.

Putting a red dot on top of a low powered scope makes no sense. We all tried it for a few years in 3 gun, and we all gave up on it. 1-4x or the like optic is equally capable for short range sighting, and offers a solid cheekweld to do it. At mid range and long range, the red dot just becomes a spectator, watching the scope do all of the work. So the investment just isn't worth it.

The guys that still do use a red dot and a telescopic optic for 3 gun usually leave the scope at or near its highest magnification, and have the red dot on a SIDE MOUNT, not a scope rider. You can tilt your rifle and maintain your cheekweld and shoot more accurately and more quickly than you can raise your face off of the stock and re-weld back and forth.

Putting a red dot on top of a mid-magnification or high magnification scope makes more sense, but it's not without faults. More and more guys on 3 gun courses are going this way, they run a variable scope set at the higher setting for long shots, then use the red dot site for short range work.

As has been mentioned, the cheek-weld is completely gone for a red dot riding on top of a scope. Sure, it's hard to miss at close ranges, but there are far better set ups.

I'll mention here that the major advantage of a dual optic system for 3 gun competition is driven by the nature of the competition itself. Competitors are forced into shooting stages where you might engage 50yrd and 300yrd targets on the same field, and speedy splits from one shot to the next is key. Nobody takes time on the firing line to crank their 1-4x from 1x on the 50's up to 4x on the 300's. It just costs too much time on the clock every time your support hand leaves the forend. Scope adjustments take basically the same split as a magazine change (surprisingly), so guys don't do it. BUT, you can tilt your rifle and roll a side mounted red dot into view, hammer the short range targets, then as you move the rifle onto the longer range targets, there's no time lost tilting the rifle back level to bring the zoom in front of your eye.

We all went through the flip down magnifier too, and again, it's just not faster than a dual optic set up for transitions. Flip down magnifiers are actually more handy for hunting than they are any tactical application, but QD magnifiers are just as fast when hunting - just one more thing to carry (or forget in the truck).

Even as a die hard coyote hunter, I've RARELY had instances where such scenarios present themselves in the field. I kill as many doubles and triples as anyone I know, and I do it all with relatively high magnification scopes (4.5-15x, 4.5-14x, 2.5-16x, 6-18x, 6-24x, 5.5-22x). If a group of coyotes are at 100yrds for my first shot, I'm on ~9x or higher, then take my lead on the other dogs as they extend from 100-400yrds. If they're in closer, I'll zoom down to 4-6x, so my follow up shots are in clear view as they extend away.

One of my night calling rifles is set up with dual optic, Burris FastFire III on an angled side mount under a Leupold 4.5-14x50mm VX-3 - but I never intend to use both on the same stand: I use the optic during the day and the dot at night. My other night calling rifle only has a FFIII on top (green lights only - red lights kill the dot).

EDIT: I do also use red dot sights on handguns, and the advantage there is clear. A Ruger Super Blackhawk front sight subtends ~16MOA in a 6' tall man's hands, so shrinking your aiming device to 2, 3, 4, 6, or even 8MOA takes a LOT of slop out of the aiming system. And it does so without magnifying the wiggles and jiggles of the shooters hand like a scope will, and without the requirement for proper eye-optic alignment. If the dot's on the target, you'll hit the target. For action shooting with pistols, that mantra is a huge advantage - I can move my 2011's sights onto target, but just having the front sight on the target doesn't mean I'm going to hit the target, because my rear sight could be way out in lala land... It's a LOT faster running a red dot sight. The only disadvantage for red dots on defensive pistols is the batteries, and the fact that you have to take some action to turn them on (most of them). I had a FFII on my Glock 19 nightstand gun for a time, then swapped for a DeltaPoint with auto activate, now it's wearing mepro tritiums. The only disadvantages on a slide mounted red dot (vs. a frame mounted saddle mount like my 2011 sports) are that the red dot MOVES a lot, and being lower to the slide puts it directly behind the muzzle and breech flashes (more precise, but victim of flash blindness).

Red dots are a big advantage for young or new/inexperienced handgunners also. It's difficult for new or young shooters to keep track of triple plane systems (rear, front, and target), so taking out requirement to align the sights and "just put the dot on the target" is a big advantage. True for rifle shooting as well, but not as much of an advantage for handgunning.

There's also a large subset of aged shooters, or other shooters with vision impairments that benefit from having a single plane handgun sight (or rifle or shotgun sight for that matter). Lots of far sighted shooters have trouble telling if their sights are aligned, red dots eliminate that issue.

So don't take my disdain for dual optic set ups as a slight against red dot sights as a whole. I'm a huge proponent of red dot sights for many applications, but the execution of dual optic systems just isn't really worth the cost for most folks.
 

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Good solid advice...^^^^^^^^^^ ;)
 
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