Ruger Forum banner

1 - 20 of 46 Posts

·
Banned
Joined
·
269 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have already reloaded some 30-06 bullets with winchester brass, large rifle primers, and sierra 165 grain bullets.

the bolt will close, but it doesn't close smooth like new ammo does.

I had eleven 30-06 cases left all cases were trimmed to 2.485 or less, and 5 of the 11 cases were put into the action of the rifle, and closed smoothly,

the other 6 cases were put into the action of the rifle, and the bolt would close, but not smoothly.

(note I did not prime or put bullets in the cases just wanted to see how they would work before taking them to the next step)

What am I doing wrong, what could be done again, to get the rest of the cases to fit and function smoothly?

I have no doubt the ammo I loaded will shoot, but if I wanted to shoot 4 rounds, all at once, I would want the bolt to close smoothly while doing so.

I contacted Redding Reloading to see what they say, and will post it here once I get a response back, but would like to know from others who have had a similar problem what they did to fix the issue.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
208 Posts
Turn the FL die down more, to size the brass more. RCBS press will "cam over" on sizing. Lube the inside of the case necks, so the expander doesnt pull the brass shoulder forward.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Most likely the shoulder isn't pushed back enough causing you to have to use some effort to close the bolt. You should get a headspace micrometer tool to figure out exactly how much you need to resize to match your chamber size and to setup the resize die. Really helps brass life and accuracy imo.



This is what happens when you screw that resizer die down too much (excess headspace, too loose, shoulder pushed back too much). turn the resizer towards the shell holder in small increments.



If that isn't the problem then it could be two other things:

You have a super tight match chamber and need to use a small base die. Probably should be using one for semi auto anyway.

The bullet isnt seated enough and is jamming into the lands. You'll be able to see the marks on the bullet from loading and ejecting these.

My 700p only has a jewel br trigger makes 5 shot groups like this.

 

·
Banned
Joined
·
269 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
thanks for the posts.

to anyone else having this same problem. I will post what Redding Reloading sent me through the email. I have a "instant indicator" made by redding, but haven't used it, not sure if will check headspace.

the problem is exactly what .243winxb is describing.

here is what Redding sent in the email. it may help someone else, and I will post later when I get the chance if this solves the problem, when I get the brass to work.

Thank you for using Redding Reloading Equipment. Redding's Full Length Sizing Dies are designed to push the shoulder back up to .008" below SAAMI Min Chamber. So unless you have a custom rifle with a tight chamber the dies should work. I recommend setting your die up for cam-over, this will take the play out of the threads between the die and the press. To set your die up for a cam-over screw your die down another 1/8th to 1/4 past first contact. Adjust the die with as much cam-over as possible and then try the sized case in your rifle's chamber. If it fits then back the die away from the shellholder and work the die back down until the bolt handle closes freely. Keep in mind that 1/71 of a turn equals .001" of shoulder set back and you may be close to the setting you need.

The industry standard depth for a shellholder is .125" from the top of the shellholder to the shelf the case head sits on. I have talked to reloaders that have problems with a shellholder that was causing the problem.

If you believe there is a problem with your die you may return it to the address below along with a copy of this email. Please include a daytime phone number and return mailing address. I would ask that you include your shellholder and five fired cases just as they came out of your rifle's chamber. Your shellholder and fired cases will be returned with your die after our evaluation.

Please let me know how you make out.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
269 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Most likely the shoulder isn't pushed back enough causing you to have to use some effort to close the bolt. You should get a headspace micrometer tool to figure out exactly how much you need to resize to match your chamber size and to setup the resize die. Really helps brass life and accuracy imo.
This is what happens when you screw that resizer die down too much (excess headspace, too loose, shoulder pushed back too much). turn the resizer towards the shell holder in small increments.

My 700p only has a jewel br trigger makes 5 shot groups like this.

do you taper crimp your 30-06 rounds? what is a jewel br trigger? did you shoot that bullet? do you think as long as the bolt is closed, it would be ok to shoot those rounds, even though it doesn't close smoothly? or pull the bullets out and resize anyways?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Its okay to shoot them as long as the bolt closes and is locked in full battery. Are you using the forward assist? For me it would be a reminder that my qc process slipped.

I push the shoulders back using a redding 'base die', which doesn't touch the neck. For the neck, I use a lee collet neck sizer die.

I don't crimp my rounds since I'm using a bolt action with a single shot sled. Jewel is a brand of aftermarket trigger. Other brands are like rifle basic, timiney, geisselle, etc.

With a semi auto AR I would be using a lee FCD FactoryCrimpDie.

I shot those at 100yds off a concrete table and a cheap rock rest. Its 308win not 30-06 though. Lightweight 125gr speer tnt flatbase...the same stuff I use in my 300blk AR.

do you taper crimp your 30-06 rounds? what is a jewel br trigger? did you shoot that bullet? do you think as long as the bolt is closed, it would be ok to shoot those rounds, even though it doesn't close smoothly? or pull the bullets out and resize anyways?
 

·
Ironhat
Joined
·
287 Posts
what is a jewel br trigger?
If jh4db536 answered this already and I missed it, apologies all around. I believe that Jewel is a brand name of trigger and BR is an adjustable trigger, down to several ounces just for Bench Rest shooting. They should only be used for competition as they may be dangerous if you are unfamiliar with them. BR shooters are looking for every edge that they can gain in accuracy and trigger pull is a place that can easily be tricked out to attain greater accuracy. Should I be incorrect or inaccurate on any point please let us know since that's the way we learn.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
269 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
redding

I push the shoulders back using a redding 'base die', which doesn't touch the neck. For the neck, I use a lee collet neck sizer die.
what reloading setup do have, are you using a single stage press? what shell plates are you using?

since your using two different dies, what is your setup from start to finish?

mine would be to resize/deprime, check the dimensional length with a caliper and trim it to spec. prime. load powder, seat the bullet.

my redding die set is a competition set, and came with a taper crimp. I taper crimped the rounds I made, and some didnt seem to crimp at all, and a few looked like the factory crimp that came with the 180 grain winchester bullets I was shooting to begin with.

how much variation should the neck of the bullet have from the specs in the book? I'm probably making it more complicated than it really is, but would like to discuss.

I thought the accu-trigger was laughably easily to use, I couldn't imagine a hair trigger on a competition gun.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
I don't think my process differs from the conventional process; the wheel hasn't been reinvented. I decap, wettumble, lube, resize base and neck separately, trim, prime, charge, and seat bullet.

For rifle reloading I have a redding ultramag because that's what I found at a nice price when shopping (was looking for a big boss 2).

I tried a lot of setups going way over board, but I cut back to the things that help most and keeping it effective.

I deprime with lee universal before ss media tumble. I have a lee ergo hand primer that I use for everything.

Backup redding full length small base resize die. My belief is this sometimes cures crooked brass...If I feel brass no longer spins true in the lathe I try this or toss it.

I cut brass to consistent size nothing specific. I sort headstamps and brass weights if im going overboard.

1) redding small base 'base die' $25
To get my head space consistent my gun chamber measures 0.003" (Wont close bolt at +0.004") I push shoulders to +0.002". I use the redding comp shellholders to make this easy.

2) Lee collet neck die $25
I can easily tell my neck tension when using a summit press when seating with a short handle which provides feedback. If I get a bullet that goes in too easily or too hard i will sort that out and use it for warm up shots.

3) forster competition bullet seater $60 kinda expensive but works really well. Bullet seating all to 0.001" consistency. Has super fine threads for accuracy compared to the Redding version.
4) I use a Sinclair 6 side ogive (nut) tool to measure coal.

Gempro250 scale for powder measuring. I use a super cheap lee thrower to drop extruded rifle pellets ie varget and my favorite ball powder w748. Reloader15 is second choice. Varget 3rd.

I don't crimp but would use the lee fcd if I had to.

Sorting for consistency is key. I might only have 3 to 4 sets of 5 shot groups after reloading 50. I label those and use the rest for practice. If I get one ragged hole grouping after a range session I'll be happy
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
269 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
headspace gauge micrometer

For rifle reloading I have a redding ultramag because that's what I found at a nice price when shopping (was looking for a big boss 2).

before I bought my lnl ap by hornady, I kind of regret not getting a press made by redding, because I use their dies.

what kind of headspace gauge are you using. I have one made by redding, but haven't figured out how to set it up. setting up the dial is what gets me, its one dial but has two zero readings on it, and then you turn the other dial to zero and line both zeros up. I think there is a video on youtube somewhere.....

I know I should have used it before I started reloading the brass I shot from the rifle, to get a exact reading, but Redding offered to do that for me as well as check the shell plate (hornady) and die I have (redding).

I doubt the redding die is the problem. I tried camming the die, with no success, and tried trimming more of the brass just to see if that would help. I put that piece of brass up...... I'd like to get some more 30-06 brass to load, but until I get this figured out, I'm in no hurry.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
269 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
I got the headspace gauge setup.

the brass that fits fine is less than spec, to the left of 0.

the brass that feels like it sort of jams, is up to spec (i believe you would read it as .003) to the right of gauge.

what would that mean?

all 5 brass cases that fit fine were to the left the dial or at zero. the measurements on the dial were: 0, -.001, -.001, 0 and 0

the 6 brass cases that felt like they kind of jammed where to the right of the dial. the measurements were: .004, .002, .003, .002, .001.

how could I get the brass back to 0 or to the left of zero?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
I got the headspace gauge setup.

the brass that fits fine is less than spec, to the left of 0.

the brass that feels like it sort of jams, is up to spec (i believe you would read it as .003) to the right of gauge.

what would that mean?

all 5 brass cases that fit fine were to the left the dial or at zero. the measurements on the dial were: 0, -.001, -.001, 0 and 0

the 6 brass cases that felt like they kind of jammed where to the right of the dial. the measurements were: .004, .002, .003, .002, .001.

how could I get the brass back to 0 or to the left of zero?
0.000 in the middle is probably exactly Saami spec on the nose. That's how my rcbs gauge works.

Then there's shoulder back and forward (increase and decrease headspace) I refer to oversize as + and undersized as -.

In my specific rifle, the chamber will tolerate +0.003 over saami so I push brass to +0.002.

Usually it grows when fire formed...measured right after you shoot it. Sometimes it shrinks or grows more when you resize even when you use a very offset + shellholder (redding comp shellholders). Weird things happen.

Based on your gauge is basically saying your guns chamber is exavtly saami spec and won't tolerate brass with more headspace. It also confirms that the shoulder is not pushed back far enough therefore causing difficulty closing the bolt.

If you still can't push the shoulder back try a different shell holder. This is why I spent to buy Redding comp shellholder set because they are actually precision made to manipulate the headspace given you understand what you're doing and have the gauge

You probably need to pull those bullets and resize the brass screw down the resize die in increments repeat until the shoulder is pushed back to 0.000 or less.

Going forward u should be aiming for -0.001" consistently on all brass resized for that gun.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
208 Posts
Bolt Action

The shell plate of the Hornady Lock-N-Load AP Progressive Press may be different at each station. The deck heights should be near .125" at each station. Some times the shelll plate has to be tightened so the plate just turns. My Dillon sized the brass to much.
No crimp for 30-06 in a bolt action. To much crimp may bulge the shoulder.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,167 Posts
This is why reloaders should not try to learn on their own.

Fitting ammo to your chamber is an easy process, but you need to understand what you're doing and how to use your tools effectively to be able to do it. You can't just crank your dies down to the shellholder or follow the instructions in the die booklet and end up with perfectly fit ammo every time.

For a bolt gun, a hunting rifle, you should be setting your shoulder to about 2thou (more if you're lazy and don't clean your rifle as often as you should) within your chamber's headspace. It doesn't matter AT ALL what the gauge says - there is no guarantee that the gauge actually matches your chamber. The easiest way to test that is to measure once fired brass (or better -twice fired). Another way is to take a known sized piece of brass (or factory cartridge), measure the headspace length, then add tape to the base layer by layer until it gets stiff to close, or will not close. This is the first critical length in your rifle - your headspace.

Once you have your proper headspace determined, you should be measuring your actual chamber throat to set up your bullet seater with the bullet model you'll be using. You can either use a tool like the Hornady OAL guage (doesn't work unless you're great at math), smoke your bullets, self-seat a bullet, or any other known method, but this will give you the second critical length in your rifle chamber - your base-to-ogive length

Comparators are cheap, there's no excuse not to own them and no excuse not to use them.

The die mounted gauge only ensures that you cam over the press the same every time into the seater - unless you don't cam over into the gauge the same every time - in which case it tells you nothing.

Also - there are multiple references to loading for semi-automatic rifles and even a reference to a super-tight match chamber - THE GUY IS SHOOTING A RUGER AMERICAN. Side details about other rifles and custom triggers won't solve his lack of understanding the simple processes of sizing and seating.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
269 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
yea, its really not that complicated.

just making it more complicated.

the redding setup I have will give you everything from ogive to headspace.

just a matter of reading directions.......

I emailed redding with the info posted, and they said try camming the fl die again.

or measure the shellplate and it should be the industry standard of .125"

redding even offered to do that for me.

the redding die is setup to fl size the case .008" below SAAMI specs.

I was also told

As long as the die can be set up with a Cam-over the Hornady Lock and Load should not be a problem.

not so sure the Hornady press can cam-over this with the shell plate.

Im just glas I didnt reload a butt load of 30-06 rounds, just to find out they didnt chamber well.

I have loaded a dozen or so .223 rounds no problems.

for this rifle if it isn't set up to 0 or less than 0, it wont chamber well,

doing everything I can at the minute to get these 6 brass cases to fit well, before going any further.

I didnt realize at the time, but reloading has become more than just reloading, but a expensive hobby!
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
269 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
243winxb thanks for the link,

going to read through that later. the out of battery section is the part I am most concerned for.

I dont' have a real reloading manual, I have the manual Midway sells, thats a combination of all bullet manufacturers, and the reloading data for the most popular reloads available.

no use to make any more reloads at the moment until I get this figured out.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
269 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Comparators are cheap, there's no excuse not to own them and no excuse not to use them.

the redding bullet comparator can check headspace ogive (bullet uniformity) bullet seating depth and case length.

just by changing a few pieces inside the die with different bushings.
 
1 - 20 of 46 Posts
Top