Both nice guns.
I'm not quite sure to make of your post. I think the "Myself and I" and your use of "we" makes me wonder who is the other person you are referencing or if you are trying to give more weight to an opinion that is solely yours.Myself and I have been doing a lot of testing or comparing of different firearms. We did a test not too long ago with the Sig 365. Later the SAS and a few others.
One of the negatives of the 365 was the fact that this gun really is not designed for a large hand or especially a Xtra lg. No not the length of the grip, which most guns folks can over come, but the very narrow space between the receiver and the grip frame.
Look at the new Hellcat and you can see how they seem to have actually thought out a better solution. More room for the off hand. As far as shooting the 365 we felt is was remarkable unremarkable. Yes, a nice gun, well made but nothing that stood out. In fact, what I thought was so interesting was how the gun shot so similar to the Ruger LC9S. And actually the LC9S has a better design as far as ergonomics.
You be the judge.
I deleted my original post because I did not want to offend anyone that owns the 365. Again, when I tested the gun was and I repeat in a group of 5 from my club. We spent the most part of a day shooting the Sig and comparing. We all contributed to the ammo. Each of us shooting the gun for 250 rounds.I'm not quite sure to make of your post. I think the "Myself and I" and your use of "we" makes me wonder who is the other person you are referencing or if you are trying to give more weight to an opinion that is solely yours.
I own both the LC9s and the Sig P365. I got the LC9s back in Feb 2015 and the Sig in May 2018. I put more than 2300 rounds thru my LC9s and have more than 1600 rounds thru my P365. I carried the LC9s almost daily until I got the P365. The LC9s has not been fired in the past almost 16 months or so. It has become a backup for the Sig in case it ever has issues, gets lost or damaged. The daliy carry duties are now handled by the Sig. The Sig is so close to the LC9s in size that I never had to buy a holster specifically for it. The Sig fits perfectly in my LC9s holdters both IWB and OWB.
(My point is, I've carried for extended period of time both the LC9s and a P365. My view isn't just a matter of firing a few rounds while comparing different firearms.)
You include the Hellcat in your post. Have you fired one yet? I haven't seen one in my area yet. Is your determination of it being a better firearm for larger hands based solely on pictures? From the picture you provided that extra 3/16" or so isn't that significant compared to the Sig IMO. Some reviewers who have fired the pistol have complained that the roughness of that spot on the Hellcat irritates the thumb placed on it whole shooting.
All three of the pistols you mentioned are members of what is now commonly called "micro" 9 mm pistols. They are under 18 oz in weight; the LC9s really isn't in the same category because the other two are considered double stack firearms and have significantly higher capacity (11 or 10 vs 7).
The size category stands on its own. It's designed to be as small as possible with as much capacity as possible. I highly doubt that is was purposely designed for extra large hands (or extra small hands either for that matter.)
In your photo between the LC9s and the P365, an astute person will see that the user can get a higher grip on the Sig firearm because of that narrow space between the receiver grip frame and a higher "beaver tail." That effectively lowers the bore axis. My Sig definitely has less muzzle flip than my LC9s.
So, as your thread title says "Ruger LC9s vs Sig 365", you (and whomever Myself and I are) do a great job comparing two apples (P365, Hellcat) to an orange (LC9s).
I think you have a good point. Not just with sigs but other gun manufacturers as well. What a shame they dropped the 290RS. A great little gun. That said, the Sig 238 is still standing tall and I much prefer the Sig 938 over the 365. but that is just a personal taste. I am not into the high round count like some of the folks are now. Personally I am a big fan of the Kahr. I love the light weight, the size is perfect and it is such a Mild shooter. Just read about the PM9 that had 40,000 rounds fired through it. Also the Youtube video with the GunGuy.If you find a Sig that you like the best advice that i can give is to stock up on magazines and spare parts.
They change like the wind blows. I have a Sig p290rs and also a p239 and love them both. But now they are obsolete.
My prediction is that when p365 sales lag, they will come out with a new Sig in spring pastel shades.
Good yesterday, obsolete today.
Hey, I'm not a Sig hater. My other two Sig pistols are 1911s. Not even Sig can pronounce the 1911 platform "so ten minutes ago". Maybe a mauve pallet 1911 might be just what I need for spring.
So I've read that Sig has sold over 600k of the P365. Just imagine the sucking sound of the price drop when Sig comes out with the P365 Gen2. Sig owners will be dropping that obsolete P365 like a bad habit.
Anyway, liking a hammer fired pistol probably is a contributing factor in my own obsolescence.
I deleted my original post because I did not want to offend anyone that owns the 365. Again, when I tested the gun was and I repeat in a group of 5 from my club. We spent the most part of a day shooting the Sig and comparing. We all contributed to the ammo. Each of us shooting the gun for 250 rounds.
And I know a little about the Ruger LC9 having owned two of them. The present one has some where between 6-7 thousand rounds.
No one disparaged the 365. It shot fine, is of good build quality. But there was a common complaint about the grip. The receiver space between the receiver and the grip was just way too narrow for myself and a few other shooters. Your original post did mention the "negative" aspect of the smaller grip
My point was that the LC9S is very similar in size, weight, recoil, height, etc. but for me a much better feel. The only real diffence in these two micro pistols is a magazine and a few more rounds. So I do believe any Micro pistol can be compared to the Sig 365. I agree and some are better and some are worse. The 365 does not make all other Micro 9mm obsolete. No, it does not. It's just like an equivalent sized Glock doesn't make a 1911 obsolete, they are just different, each has it pluses and minuses,
The other point I was trying to make was the comparison to the 365 and the Hellcat in that I believe from the Pics, it may be a better grip for those of us with a larger hand. Maybe, maybe not. It did not take me more than a few rounds to make a decision that the 365 was not for me personally. Nothing against the gun. Just not a good fit. Nor was it a good fit for a few of the others that shot the gun that day. One lady in our small group, a very avid gun enthusiast loved the gun and later bought one. I just checked my winter gloves, I have XL hands and , yes it is small, the 12 round Sig mag fits better but it affects concealability which is more important to me. People who design products with ergonomics in mind have all sorts of data on what is the most common size. I'm sure Sig (and Ruger and Everybody else took that into account in their design process.)
I personally felt the 365 did shoot very similar to the Ruger but with a little less muzzle flip. Recoil is about the same. Here's where the higher grip/beavertail and lower bore aspect come into play
I certainly am glad to see you love the Sig, it is a fine gun, nice shooter and if you are into high round capacity than you have found the perfect gun for yourself. Congrats! It's not perfect, It's made by humans, I'm sure someone will come out with a better option in hte next few years.
I have other micro 9mm's that I love as well and they are the perfect fit for me.
I will say, I also shot the XL and the SAS. I really liked the sleek SAS but again, just not a good fit.
PS I have no dog in this fight. I have retired my LC9S for the most part and have NO desire for the Sig or the Hellcat. I already own a couple of Micro 9mm that are perfect for me as a individual. I do plan on testing he Hellcat in the near future, but it would be way down the road before I even think about buying one.
Now here is some striking news for you. On another forum, I was a staunch, adamant voice in defending the Sig 365 when so many were bashing the gun. The bashing was ridiculous. Out of the 1,000 rounds we shot that day, we only had 6 failures and those we contributed to user error. Riding the slide when we warned each shooter to be careful of before shooting.
The Sig is a fine gun. No two ways about it. Good build quality and a marvel in engineering. Just not a good fit. Maybe Ruger will come out with a LC9 in a new version who knows. That would be great. They need to do something in that area.
Safe shooting and again congrats on your Sig 365. If Sig does come out with a new size grip than I may very well be a player.
One more thing. Your comment "any astute person will see that the user can get a higher grip on the Sig firearm because of that narrow space between the receiver grip frame and a higher "beaver tail." That effectively lowers the bore axis.) Well I guess I fall in the category of not being very Astute. Yet I do understand very well the difference between a high bore axis and lower bore axis. In fact do own a micro9mm with two different grips one of which is higher and one lower and one with a longer beaver tail. The height of a bore axis is NOT one is better than the other. It is which one a person likes better. And the fact that regardless of the beaver tail etc, the 365 did not fit my hand. Sorry. I just do not know what to tell you on that issue.
It's unfortunate that your deleted the two photos that you had in your first post. They were much better (because you took the time to put the red lines on it and there were scales on the side) than the ones from the genitron site (great site) in showing just how the grip area and that narrow space you mention help minimize the bore axis effects. Bore axis is important because it makes a difference in the amount of muzzle flip which adds time to follow up shots. You mentioned the LC9s had more muzzle flip.
I'll see if any of ranges in my area have one for rent, although I'm not a fan of any kind of safety. That's why I like DA/SACZ man
Have you tried an SR9C? not a DA/SA if that is what you prefer, but very close to the same size as the PO-1 (a bit smaller in all 3 directions but not much); weighs about 4oz. less and has a very nice trigger. Instead of a decocker, you get a button safety.
Which gun is better, the 365 vs LC9S is better was not the point I was trying to make. Once again, I do not even shoot the LC9S any longer. I have moved on to two guns, I feel are much better for myself any way. And both for myself are much better than the 365. Typically any two guns in comparison with have a give and take for the individual. I have two guns that have higher bore axis but are the smoothest two guns I have ever shot with very little muzzle flip or felt recoil. And they are smaller for carry. But they weigh a couple of ounces more.While I like my Sig and still do like my LC9s, I'm also extremely interested in the Hellcat and may eventually get one. Each generation of ALL manufacturers firearms should get better and should build on the best features of their own models and their competitors. If they don't they will lose market share fast.
Both the Sig and the Hellcat come with night sights standard. Both have higher capacity. both have better build quality then the any of the 4 recent Rugers I have. (I own two recent XD series firearms, I can't imagine that SA would cheapen the Hellcat.) The "smooth" design of the Ruger makes zero difference when used with a properly designed holster.
People say but the Sig sells for $479...true but that is with two mags and night sights installed and in the first year of sales. I paid $399 for my LC9s after they were on the market for two years. I coudn't buy another mag and put night sights on my LC9s for the less than $100 difference.
My whole point in this "discussion" is that the P365 (and Hellcat) are not an apples to apples comparison to an LC9s (which you can't buy anymore) when looking at objective data.
Conclusions based on how it fits your own (or other people's larger sized) hands are entirely subjective. The Genitron info you posted gives facts that show in many areas both the Hellcat and the P365 are better than a LC9s.
That is about the standard round count for a Micro 9mm from what I have seen. I use Gallaway in my Nano's and emailed him and he told me as such. I alwaysLet me add one thing to this. I have a P365 and at 2500 round it call for the recoil spring assembly to be replaced. Now it's about $30.00 and likely the gun will run a lot longer than that BUT it's a personal defence weapon and you really want to be able to KNOW it will run.
I don't have the Ruger or Hellcat so if they call out this replacement I don't know. I know in 3 months of owning the Sig I have well over 500 round through it.