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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Greeting Gents

I'm looking for a scope for a 1-/22 Take Down. I have a few in mind but I like to get some other opinions before I buy one.

I'm primarily looking to hunt small game but also to shoot pest at night at close range.

So here's what I'm looking. I don't expect to find everything but I'd like to get as close as possible.

1. Scope can't be longer than 11 inches. Any longer and the rifle won't fit in the bag with the scope mounted.

2. 4x magnification, fixed or adjustable. (1-6 ideal)

3. AO or side Parallax Adjustor (I have not used these before so I don't really know how critical this is for close range targets. But from doing research it seems this is a very desirable feature for rimfires. However, if you do have a scope with the parallax fixed at 50 yards can you zero in on targets at 30 ft for night shooting?)

4. Finger adjustable windage & elevation with removable knobs that can be taken off and reset to zero.

5. Mildot style reticules

6. illuminated reticules

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks
 

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Rimfire/Ultralight Riflescopes · Leupold

Are you going to have a flash light to illuminate your target at night...???

I can't see anything at night through scope or ghost ring unless it has light on it...then I can see perfect thru any of mine...

I have the vx-1 2-7x28 Leupold rimfire...love the fine reticule...parallax free at 60 yards but I have no problems seeing fine at 2x at 10' in poor light...yes under those conditions there is a small amount of fuzziness of the target but no problem putting the fine cross hairs dead-on target...

In daylight I practice shooting shotgun shells walking/off hand at 10' and out...reason is I walk in rattle snake infested areas and like to know I have no problem shooting one in the head at close range...

I really like that scope a lot... :D

I also have a 4-12x40mm AO/EFR/TT that is nice to have at times but I prefer to have the 2-7 with no AO and leave it on 2x until I need more...much nicer for shooting a small target at 50' or less...at 100' I like 4x...and only go to 7x for more than 150'...at 300' I definitely like the 12xAO a lot better...but it weighs twice as much...13" long...

30' at night with a light on the target I'll take the 2-7x28 with fine reticule for sure...

The A0 is likely to put you into a longer/heavier scope with probably at least 32mm obj. and the length is probably slightly more than your max allowed...

If I was not going to shoot past 100' I would get a 1-4x28mm...they actually have some magnification...

If money and weight was no concern to me...only length and features and how low I could mount it...I would get the Leupold VX-2 3-9x33mm AO/EFR rimfire (fine reticule)...

There are less expensive ones that are similar like the Weaver equivalent RV-9 but it doesn't have fine reticule, doesn't come with lens caps, is NOT made in USA...Leupold does and is...

IMO...the only reason to have anything more than 9x magnification is for hitting the smallest targets and more than 100'...

A red dot might serve you well for that gun/application...lighter, smaller...

Also...my gun does not fit in the bag I carry it in with anything but low profile irons...no scope or red dot...

I see you opted for the Ace in the hole...good option...if you get a small scope or red dot and mount it with Weaver low rings it will not only have a low profile but go on/off very easily using a coin for a screw driver...it will be zeroed just fine...especially at close range...that will be more dependent on the quality of the scope than the on/off repeatability with that brand/style low rings...the higher the rings and bigger the scope the more likely it is to not be zeroed after on/off...I just wrap my scope(s) and/or red dot in bubble wrap and stick them in my ammo bag...no problem...so if you want a scope that doesn't fit in your bag I suggest you get the scope you want and mount it with easy on/off but good quality and lowest possible profile...
 

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This is the VX-1 2-7x28mm scope mounted on the Weaver multi-slot tip off rail...very close to the rail you get with the ACE in the hole...with Weaver Low Rings...should give you a good idea of what that size scope will be like on your gun...note that with the cheek rest set correctly for that scope eye level you will not be able to use the peep sight on your ACE in the hole...



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Why the attraction to a Mill radiant reticule, What you are calling a Mill dot.
Do you know how to use one? or anything about them ? There wasted on a 22 LR
and only correctly used at 10 power.
. A O or side Parallax Adjustor, very critical option if you don't want the cross hairs dancing up and down.
parallax free at 60 yards
It wont be at 10 yards
Are you going to have a flash light to illuminate your target at night...???
You wont see anything without one unless there is ample existing light.
10' in poor light...yes under those conditions there is a small amount of fuzziness of the target
10' is ridiculously close to ask any scope to be clear.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Tommy Gun

Thanks for your post. it was very informative. Very much appreciated.

Why the attraction to a Mill radiant reticule, What you are calling a Mill dot. Do you know how to use one? or anything about them ? There wasted on a 22 LR and only correctly used at 10 power.
. A O or side Parallax Adjustor, very critical option if you don't want the cross hairs dancing up and down. It wont be at 10 yards
Graywolf

Thanks for the info on the parallax adjustor. it was very helpful.

As for the Mil-dot. It's not a must but I know how to use them. I think it may be helpful at ranges over 75 yards. I've been looking at the Nikon P-22 BDC reticules. Nikon has a new software called "Spot On" >>Nikon Hunting It calculates your bullet drop down to the ammo type and brand you are using! From playing with it it shows most .22 ammo starting to drop after 75 yards. It's very cool and can easily be modified to use with the Mil-dot. I highly recommend anyone to just check it out. They've done all the hard work for you.

As for close range I think it still may be potentially helpful. If I have my scope zeroed in at 50 and then try to shoot something at 10 yards, I would expect the bullet to be hitting a little below the reticule. If this is the case, then the Mil-dots may come into play. But I have never done this before with a .22 so I will have to experiment with it.

In most cases though, I think the Mil-dot will never come in to play. It's just one of those thing I like to have just in case.

You wont see anything without one unless there is ample existing light. 10' is ridiculously close to ask any scope to be clear.
I wouldn't expect any scope to be clear at 10 yards either but hopefully enough. But should be pretty good over 20 yards. Also, I've used scopes frequently at night in airsoft. You'll be amazed how much better you can see looking through scope at night. However, I plan to take this one step further and attach a Sony Camcord with Night Shot with a IR laser flashlight on it. It's a poor man's night vision and is way better than any Gen-1 or-2 night vision, not to mention that it's cheaper and you can record to boot.

If you want to learn how. Check these links out. You'll have a much better understanding what I will do with a scope at night. (With sub-sonic .22)
And if you want to learn how to make your own, check out Sypercat's other video where she shows you how.
Rat shooting by snypercat June 2012 - YouTube
Why the attraction to a Mill radiant reticule, What you are calling a Mill dot. Do you know how to use one? or anything about them ? There wasted on a 22 LRand only correctly used at 10 power.
I think my answer above answered these questions.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
By the way, I found 3 scopes that come close to what I've been looking for.

UTG (Leapers) 30mm SWAT 3-12X44 Compact IE Scope w/ AO Mil-dot
Leapers is not the best brand out there but may be sufficient for my use.



Firefield 3-12x40 Tactical Rifle Scope
Don't know anything about this brand but if it's better that Leapers then it's a deal



Burris Timberline 4.5X-14X-32mm
Little higher magnification than I like but acceptable, no illuminated reticule but good quality
 

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How to use the MIL DOT Reticule for Range Estimation
Here is a good example of what a mill dot scope is all about, and some of the ways it's used.
Marine mill dots are egg shape (oval ) and Army dots are round.
I will try to explain the way I was taught in sniper training. it's been a while but I think my facts are still worthy.
If you clicked on the link you will see pictures of what you see through a mill-radiant reticule.
Looks like a bunch of dots going up and across right ?
Here is one of the ways to use it in order to get the distance from the muzzle to the target up to 1,000 yards. Using yards as the distance indicator.
I will try not to conflict with whats in the text shown in the link.
Mill-rads are a form of measurements like the degrees in a circle, to simplify, one mill is 3.6"
The dots in the scope are 1 mill apart from center to center of each dot. and broken down into 1/10 mills in-between each dot. so the spot exactly between each center of one dot and the center of the next dot is 1 mill.
A dedicated Mill scope will have 1/10 mill hash marks in-between each mill dot. half way between each dot is .5 mills.
Yes it can be a confusing picture to look at but it helps with ranging your target.
The center of the reticle does not have a dot, but the intersecting lines of the cross hairs represent the center of an imaginary dot that is not there. if it were exact aiming would be difficult.
So from the intersecting cross hair to the center of the first dot going up or across is 1 mill with the 1/10 mill increments in-between. If the scope does not have the hash marks the 1/10 measurement must be done accurately, A miss calculation of 1/10 mill can give a target distance that is incorrect.
From the center of the cross hair to the center of the second dot is 2 mills the spacing between the dots is always 1/10 of a mill. and so on. The article explains this well in the link
There is no guessing when using a mill dot scope, but certain things are done before they are used correctly. Also keep in mind all this works at ten power, with ocular lens focused for the clearest picture. Sun shades and anti glare devises help to give a clear true picture of you are seeing.
OK, the only way a mill dot scope can be used properly is if you know your target size.
It will not work any other way, period.
there is no other way to make it
work in order to use it as it's intended purpose.
So one has to gather battle field measurements, or exact paper or steel target size, when hunting the size of the game animal. Remember the target can be milled up and down (vertical )
or horizontal ( across )
So in combat depending on what the A O ( area of operation ) is we must know the size of our target, if the target is a human, they may have a different average size than our country or origin.
We also take measurements of as many thing in the environment as possible as they my be substituted for target size if close by the intended target or if the target is partially obscured.
Windows, hub caps, door sizes, car fenders, anything we can depend on to be of a constant size.
We shouldn't need any help hitting a target out to 100 yards, so the rifle is sited for exact point of aim at 100 yards ( dead on hold ) with the center of the cross hair. The rifle is then checked at 125, 150, 175, 200 and so on for the max distance we expect to shoot. remember the scope is zeroed
to hit point of aim at 100 yards. The scope adjustment for a POA hit are recorded for each different distance, (example=) 4 clicks up for 150 yards, 9 clicks up for 200 yards and so on.
(and Known as turret come ups) we don't worry about going back down cause after each shot the scope turret is returned to zero ( 100 yard POA --dead on hold ) 100 yards is always the go back to point for the turrets. so now we know how our bullet reacts in relation to bullet drop for each different distance. But we don't know the distance do we ?, just saying that Wood chuck is way out there is not going to cut it. So lets use the mill dot scope to tell us how far away that wood chuck, paper target, gong, or human target is from us. Remember you can use indicators of a known size if you are unsure of the exact target size.
I hope somebody reads all this stuff, I'm tired of typing but if one person learns one thing it's worth it to me.
Well we shot from a good rest and now we know how to adjust our scope turrets for the different distances. ( right ? you did do that right ) hope so. OK lets check things out and see if it all works.
Lets do a little range work. Remember a mill is 3.6" and the distance from the center of one dot to the next dot is one mill. the thick part of the cross hairs after the dots end at the intersecting part of the line and the thick area is seen as the center of another dot if needed.
(it's not there it's imagined )
So we draw 2 lines on our target that are 3.6" apart, to indicate one Mill, now we move back to 100 yards and rest the rifle on a steady, stable sand bag rest, front bag ans a squeeze bag under the stock behind the trigger guard. We site the scope on the target with the cross hair on the bottom line and find the top line intersects with the middle of the first dot, that is one mill. it didn't ? is your scope on ten power and the picture clear ?. if not clear up the site picture with the ocular lens and put the scope on 10 power and try again.
Here is one of the formulas:
Target size X 27.8 divided by the number of mills. = distance in yards. Lets try it out.
We know our target ( the lines we drew ) are 3.6" apart so it's 3.6 ( the size )
times 27.8 (the constant) and that's 100.08 that # is divided by 1 mill cause that's how much the two lines occupied in the scope and the distance is 100.8 yards, close enough for a clean kill.
What if the target took up 2 mills in the scope ? the bottom of the target rested on the cross hair and the top of the target lined up with the center of the 2nd dot going up. that would be 2 mills and look like this. target size is still the same 3.6" times 27.8 =100.08 but this time it's 2 mills, the answer would be 50 yards, if the target was milled and shown to be 1/2 a mill it would be 200 yards away. the scope is adjusted for the distance with the pre determined turret come ups and then returned to zero for the next shot.
Mann that's a lot to remember. Still think you understood Mill dots and how they work ?
Sure hope it helps, someone should do a sticky on mill dot scopes.
and that is
 

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Thanks for the warning Fungun but I'm basically just gonna hunt the rats on a private farm. Oh, and my buddies when I'm playing airsoft:) So I don't think it will be an issue.
It's just a heads up from a fellow inmate in the looney state :). The Sony night shot w/ IR light on your rifle may put you on the wrong side of this stupid law on sniperscopes: 244.5 thru 653k Assaults, Imitation Firearms, Sniperscopes, Switchblades - Dangerous Weapons Control Laws - Bureau of Firearms - California Dept. of Justice - Office of the Attorney General It's far too easy to find yourself on the wrong side of the gun/hunting laws here, almost need a lawyer to take a leak lol.

Back to scopes, as I'm sure you know the larger the objective lens the more light you get in the scope, would any of the 50 mm nikons work for you?
 

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Lexington1, After looking at your desired scope specifications, you will have to make some compromises.

Let's start with the reticle ... A Mil-dot is great for long range shooting, assuming you know how to use them. They are horrible for hunting and especially "close up" shooting ... way worse in low light levels. Your best choice for a reticle is a "dual X", which has thicker outer lines and thinner inner lines. In subdued light, fine cross hairs are nearly impossible to see. Illuminated reticles make the scope's turret fat so it may not fit between the rings unless you buy an extended base.

Next is parallax, which is a very significant negative aspect with any scope ... the higher the magnification, the worse it gets. Many people blame the gun or even the ammo for poor accuracy when it's likely a parallax issue. Rimfire scopes are typically corrected for 50~60 yards. The formula for maintaining 1" or less of cross hair drift is twice the parallax corrected distance for max range and half the parallax corrected distance for the closest range. The Nikon P-22 you mentioned is parallax corrected for 50 yards so it would be fine from 50/2=25 yards to 50*2=100 yards. At distances closer than 25 yards or more than 100 yards, cross hair drift becomes increasingly worse ... up to several inches. For target rifles, the best solution is a "side dial" or AO but for hunting rifles, these devices tend to corrupt the hunt. By the time you figure out the distance, adjust your magnification, then adjust parallax correction, the critter disappeared. It just gets too busy for these devices to work well.

Yes, at closer distances, your gun will shoot low. The higher the scope is mounted above bore line, the lower it will shoot at closer distances. Here's a 22 LR trajectory chart where the center of the scope lens is 1", 1.5", and 2" above bore line and the scope is zeroed for 50 yards:


I have a 10/22 TD and found my Nikon P-22 (2~7x) with the provided Ruger base works very well. I can get it in the backpack OK but the Velcro flap won't quite reach the pocket, due to the poor design of the short flap. No problem ... I went to Wally World and bought a roll of "sticky back" Velcro. I cut a couple 4" strips then stuck the "hook" piece to the "eye" piece. This makes a nice extension that will allow the flap to secure to the pocket. Because it is not sewed in, the extensions can easily be removed.

Here's an article I posted in the forum Library called "Scope Dope". It details the issues you may want to consider before buying a scope. Click on this link: http://rugerforum.net/library/61505-scope-dope.html
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Gents

Thanks for the excellent post.

Greywolf1, your comments have been stored in my archive and will get repeated reading. I just a program on the Military Channel on a Sniper competition and they went over a lot of what you said be not to the level of detail you provided. Many thanks.

Fungun, I think your new name should be Lawman. I appreciate the education.

Iowegan, out of curiosity, why are mildots not very good for hunting? I haven't done a whole lot of hunting. I just like mildot style retcules because it just what I'm uses to.
 

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Lexington1,
Iowegan, out of curiosity, why are mildots not very good for hunting? I haven't done a whole lot of hunting. I just like mildot style retcules because it just what I'm uses to.
Mil-dot scopes were designed for snipers and long range target shooters where the target remains stationary long enough to do the computations for distance, which will dictate hold-over and windage compensation. Further, Mil-dots reticles don't show up well when hunting in wooded areas or brush. Mil-dot scopes are calibrated at the highest magnification, which may not be the optimum magnification for your shot. As you gain more experience hunting, you will find game animals don't wait for you to do the math or play with the scope's adjustments. If you don't do the math, there's no reason for a mil-dot. What most experienced hunters prefer is a "dual-X" reticle that is highly visible from dawn to dusk, in the woods, brush, or in an open area. If you can't see the reticle, you can't hit the target. Hunt with your scope on the lowest magnification in case Thumper jumps up at close range. If you spot a game animal in the distance, chances are you will have enough time to adjust the zoom ring for optimum magnification. If you hunt with the scope at max magnification, it's very hard to locate the animal because your width of view is so limited. Further, if you keep your scope on max magnification, you might as well use a fixed power scope.

You mentioned target turret knobs in your OP. Although they are quite useful at the range, they are a very poor choice for hunting. What experienced hunters do is to confirm sight in before a hunt using their same hunting ammo. Once the scope is sighted in, the turret caps are screwed on and not touched again. Any compensation for wind or distance is negligible at normal 22 LR shooting distances. Target knobs can easily get moved while tromping through the woods or even when the scope rubs on your clothing or carry case.

What most experienced hunters learn is an aiming technique called "point blank". This is where you place the cross hairs directly on the game animal's kill zone (or target bullseye) and let the gun's ballistics do the work for you. In the above chart I posted, you will note the bullet is never more than an inch off zero from about 12 yards out to 70 yards. This means you can aim directly at Thumper and expect a kill shot without any compensation, providing you can hold the rifle steady enough and your gun and ammo are accurate enough. After 70 yards, which is about the max hunting distance for a 22 LR, the bullet starts dropping quite a bit and by 100 yards, it is more than 6" low. The same point blank technique works well for high power rifles with larger game too. Because centerfires have much higher velocity, the point blank channel is about +or- 2" from the muzzle out to about 225 yards. So if Bambi is 225 yards or less, a dead center hold will place the bullet in the kill zone without any compensation

At the shooting range where you have all day to do calculations, a mil-dot is still pretty worthless on a 22 LR. Assuming the scope was sighted in for a specified distance you typically fire one test shot. If the bullet hole is 2" left and 4" low ... merely aim 2" right and 4" high to compensate for distance and wind. For long range high power centerfire rifles (300 yards or more) where you can't see a bullet hole, a Mil-dot is much more useful. After you learn how to judge wind, estimate distance, manage MOAs, and with a lot of practice ... eventually you can get proficient enough to meet the sniper's goal of "one shot ... one kill".

Bullet drop compensated reticles are nifty at the range but are pretty worthless for hunting for reasons similar to Mil-dots. Before a BDC reticle can be of any practical use, you must know the distance to the target and have your scope set to the highest magnification for calibration. When you are hunting, estimating distance can be very deceiving. Even laser range finders don't work well in the field unless you have a large object to reflect the laser beam. Grass, brush, smaller rocks, trees, etc just don't work.

I own many different rifles with scopes and have successfully hunted just about all game from prairie dogs to elk and learned the hard way about what works and what doesn't. Most of the frills, such as illuminate reticles, BDC, target turrets with knobs, AO, side dials, and high magnification create more problems than they serve. In other words, what looks cool or may seem to be a feature, turns out to be a disadvantage. At the range where you have the advantage of time and a bench rest, the above "features" can be quite useful.

The optimum hunting condition is when you spot a game animal then shoulder your rifle, flip the safety off, take aim, and squeeze the trigger. If you waste time playing with the knobs and dials or try to estimate distance, etc, chances are you will come home empty handed.
 

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I have to agree with the comments on using point blank range, and it was explained very well in the above post.
One more thing ( a small thing ) if you have your rifle resting on a steady rest
(Sand bag front and back is nice) an easy test to see and experience scope Parallax
Is to sight on a target while the rifle is steady, look through the scope without disturbing the rifle, get the cross hair centered in the bull and move your head up and down an inch or two. If the cross hair move while your head moves you have parallax, Lower magnification will lesson the effect. Some folks can over come the anomaly by keeping the cross hair perfectly centered in the scope, the way you would keep the front sight in the center of the ring on a peep sight.
Like many things in life, when we understand the problem it becomes easier to fix it.
But if we only have a Hammer, everything looks like a nail.
 
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