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Discussion Starter #1
Gentlemen:

I remember reading here that some of you are using Hydra-Shock HP and P+ for CC and home security. However, I just bumped on an interesting article in "Combat Handgun" magazine "Seven myths that can hang you in court". It is describing usage of such max damage and hi power ammo as of an intend-to-kill factor for a judge in the worst case scenario if you have killed someone in self-defense type action.

If you're not subscribed to the journal, here is PDF reproduction made by 3rd party: http://conspiracy.org.ru/guns/sdatl.pdf
Please drop your opinion, what do you think.

Since this material may violate journal's copyright, moderators shall erase it or lock the topic. I apologize if it’s inappropriate place for such post.
 

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I read it in the mag....I describe any ammo I carry as "Safest and least likely to ricochet and cause unintended damage...of the type heavily tested and approved for the FBI for their agents as safest to use, and such phrases as that"...the guys who write (Mas and others) are trying to tell us not to brag and shake our swords...a defense lawyer will try to twist things if you hit the perp with a house broom....choose your words very carefully...and make them few...be very clinical and professional...and shoot to STOP...
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks, sheepdog. It's a good point that FBI-approved ammo is safest to use. Anyhow, only to stop unarmored intruder, a standard civilian FMJ must be more than enough. I'm just curious, if it's known issue, why to take an extra risk of over-judgment?
 

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I fail to see what bearing carrying personal protection ammo in a defense gun has on intent.

I asked the clerk for carry ammo, and this is what he gave me. Nuff said.
 

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I have heard Mas say the same about reloaded ammo. I have never heard of it being an issue. The way I see it, it aint gonna matter if you shoot them with a pea shooter, someone will try to make a big deal out of it. I have carried reloaded ammo for as long as I have owned guns, if that tells you how much I worry about it.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Yeah, gunman42782, reloaded ammo is also described there as a dangerous ground. I'm not a whistleblower, just trying to imagine myself in a situation sorta "what if". You may carry a gun for the rest of your life and never use it for the purpose. But if you do, what happens next? May be Mas is making a big deal out of nothing. It's good to hear from the one who knows for sure.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Tweek, that's a good one. Actually, using HP vs. FMJ makes a huge difference in an internal wound size, and overall fatality probability. Nobody's perfect, some may even hit an innocent.
 

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Mas has hands down seen the ins and outs of police shootings and self defense shootings more than any one other person-that's his job...he goes around all over the country testifying in cases where police have been sued civilly and sometimes criminal cases where a local district attorney is hanging an LEO out to dry, or a citizen shooting is being persecuted and goes on behalf of the armed citizen who shot correctly...his expert testimony has freed many, saved others millions of $$ in suit damages, and saved officers' careers. When he says a defense lawyer will twist something and to say this or do that, he's speaking from experience...not just "shouldoughtajust in case maybe..." A standard civilian FMJ is not recommended because its likelihood of over-penetrating a target and endangering someone unintended to be shot is greater-the HP bullets historically leave the torso of the perp less often, tend to dig into objects and stay there more, and ricochet less...no round is perfect, oddities happen, but that's the general rule...a perp in my town took a Federal Hydroshock 230 Gr. .45 acp round in the center of his chest from about 15 feet-he walked outside, still mad, to wait for the ambulance...go figure...he has taught that if we carry a round similar to the PD locally, we can say we were within a reasonably safe, "accepted" round...not a hot-dog souped up super-deadly killer bullet as the opposition...it all boils down to how the jury, who usually know little of guns, percieve the story told...read others who train CCW and run shooting schools...and others who have case experience...consensus is carry an effective stopping round that's likely to be recognized as something law enf. usually carries...and explain reasonably why you picked it...same way with handgun modifications...our reasons for doing them will be twisted...what we know and what we say can be very different and the same...it's how we present ourselves, our weapon,our ammo, and our actions to the Grand Jury or jury...and that's his point on all of that...don't end up paying civilly or criminally for something someone else forced you to have to do to go on with your life....Mas wrote a book called "In the Gravest Extreme" that is recommended reading for all who put on a gun...and he's not my nephew...I've just read him for years in many places and know he knows what he's talking about...if I ever had to shoot someone...his would be a more welcome presence afterwards than any person I know...
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Thanks again Sheepdog. If I understood correctly your story about a perp in your town, he got a bullet right in a breastplate that absorbed most of the energy, and his internal organs were not significantly damaged. Is that right? What if... that bullet hits the belly, and then released all of the energy with a bunch of tiny particles of its jacket, exactly the same way as it does in a block of ballistic gel? I'm afraid, the perp may not easily survive then. Will it be called "reasonably safe", I dunno. So, that’s why I’m asking.
 

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+1 sheepdog
 

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Don't know exactly what the bullet hit-the officer who saw the wound and talked to me said center of the chest...usually a stopping hit...I'll tell one more story to show you the craziness of bullet reactions...a trooper chasing a suspect on foot fell and shot himself in the abdomen with a 125-gr. JHP...the bullet made entry front abdomen, exited the lower back, and the Dr. traced the path by marks on the sac that holds the bowels...which was not perforated...strange things have happened...when we read of the old West shootings then realize most were done with .36 lead balls and .45 lead balls and then the various rounds used in the wars...I'm partial to the .45 ACP but convinced that any round is dangerous...the human body wasn't designed to add holes to ....and everything we've learned still ain't much!!! Laser guns aren't too far-fetched...we'll see...most of us will grow old(er) and die without having to shoot at anyone-that's the best case...one expert says one thing...one another...both speak from their own experience...I love this forum because there are so many different experiences discussed and things I've never seen or heard of pop up regularly...we all benefit...
 

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thanks for the stories sheepdog.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Sheepdog, I thank you again for sharing. Personally I've seen only a deer taken by my neighbor using 7.62x39 125-gr JHP. There were 2 bullets in the body. The one to hit shoulder-blade didn't cause deadly damage at all, but the other one in a throat made an output opening about average fist size. I totally agree with you on the statement that any round is dangerous, and the human flesh wasn't designed to add holes to. So, bottom line is – whatever one’s used whenever *** happens, he’d better be ready to answer correctly some questions. :)
 

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There ya go...and you're ahead of me on the deer...spent most weekends before the Corps in the woods....NEVER saw a deer during season...much less one killed(reckon it was my after shave?)...all I saw was neatly wrapped in white...now I've seen some people shot to pieces...bullets ain't no toys........careful is a real good word to know...
 

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sheepdog taking a nap while hunting is one thing but the snoring has to stop man your waking me up.
 

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sheepdog,
I can't count the times I passed that over, then decided what the heck its there. Ya know some of the best sleep I have ever had has been in a deer stand. I remember one morning it was really cold and I got in the stand the wind laid and the sun came out and never saw a deer. My partner said I was one heck of a hunter never made a sound lol if he only knew I had fallen asleep.
So I have been busted many times myself.
 

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I go ballistic when I see these topics come up. After spending over 20 years with the US Dept of Justice, much of that time in court and even more doing case reviews, I can assure you the things you see written in gun rags by what I call "****house lawyers" is without merit. I am not a lawyer but I did sleep in a Holiday Inn Express once and do have a BS in Criminal Justice.

In these United States, we have two court systems ... criminal and civil. In criminal court, you are either found guilty or innocent. In civil court, you can be sued for the actions you take.

In all states, use of deadly force is restricted to when your life or the life of another is in jeopardy of serious injury or death. Before you have the right to use deadly force (gun knife, ball bat, karate, etc), you must exhaust all efforts to neutralize the attack by trying to escape, talk your way out of it, or use less than lethal force. If all fails, you have the right to defend yourself by using lethal force. If you fail to meet the above "test", you would be committing murder or at a minimum, assault with a deadly weapon. In criminal court, there is a fine line between self defense and murder (assault with a deadly weapon or attempted murder if the perp lives). Manslaughter is often a compromise when a death is involved and there isn't clear proof of intent. A mistake in judgement can land you in prison or worse. You have to be right and be able to prove it. Sadly enough, I've seen way too many people go to prison for doing what they thought was right based on education from TV shows.

Right response when being questioned after a self defence shooting: Based on his actions, I knew he would hurt me or kill me if I didn't do something. I tried to reason with the guy but he kept coming. I wanted to escape but there was no escape route. My only choice was to shoot.

Wrong answers: Why did you shoot him 13 times? "My gun ran out of ammo." Why didn't you run? "I'm not going to run away from anyone." Why didn't you try to reason with him? "I don't talk to strangers."

In criminal court, it is a matter of proving your innocence by meeting the above "test". Ammo, the type of weapon used, modified trigger pull, gun modifications, etc have nothing to do with guilt or innocence. It all boils down to intent. If intent can be proven, you're going down. If you protected yourself or another legally, no court in the nation will challenge the use of reloaded ammo, hollow points, a 44 Mag, or a 3 lb trigger pull. You do what you have to do to stop the attack.

Civil court is quite another issue. Many states have laws that protect you from being sued if you are found innocent in a criminal court. Unfortunately, some states don't have this law so even if you are proven innocent, you may be sued for wrongful death, using excessive force, or using bad judgement. In these cases, all sorts of evidence can be introduced to make you look bad. Here's where a jury might increase the award for such things as hollow points, high powered guns, disabling a safety device, etc.

Yes I know, lots of people talk big and say things like "I'll blow somebody's head off if they _____" (fill in the blank). Fact is, you have less rights than the perp so do yourself a big favor, check into the laws in your state as they pertain to self defense and civil law. Remember, ignorance is no excuse.

The sole purpose of self defense is to stop the attack. When you carry, you can't possibly guess what you might be up against. A single attacker ... a gang ... a person on drugs ... a 300 lb man with heavy winter clothing ... a Pitbull, etc. The only solution is to arm yourself with the weapon and ammunition you feel is best for your threat level. Don't let gun rags influence your decision when they are trying to sell products, not protect your best interests. Ballistic gel and wet phone books don't shoot back.

Protecting yourself and family while inside a home is quite different than a "carry" situation. You are going to be at close range so high powered weapons are not a good choice. You don't want to deafen yourself nor do you want a bullet zooming through a wall and hitting an innocent bystander. You may laugh but DOJ always recommended a 38 Special with 148gr wadcutter target ammo. These loads are devastating at close range yet will probably not go through a wall or door with enough retained energy to kill someone. Besides, they aren't so loud as to cause permanent hearing loss. In civil court, using a low powered target load won't get much sympathy from a jury. A laser is an exceptionally good addition to a home defense weapon. Not only will it allow you to point the weapon from almost any position, it has a very high deterrent factor when a bad guy sees a red dot on his chest. A laser in the eyes will temporarily blind the BG. The light level in a home makes a laser good for daylight, low light or even total darkness. It helps illuminate the target so hopefully you won't blast granny.

My personal carry gun is either a Colt Commander loaded with 230 gr FMJs or a GP-100 loaded with 158 gr JHPs. My house gun is a S&W Mod 15 4" 38 Special loaded with 148 gr HBWCs. My wife has a Walther P-22 with a rail mounted laser at her bedside.
 

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Iowegan, I got as far as "you must exhaust all efforts to neutralize the attack by trying to escape..." Big LOUD WRONG-you know guns like I know ice cream, but you don't keep up with the current laws as a lawyer or cop or ex-cop would...learn about the Castle doctrine...in several states, and finally, Texas(effective 1 Sep), there is NO DUTY TO RETREAT OR ESCAPE when you are where you have a right to be where you are and are doing what you have a right to do and did not provoke the attack...NONE. If you are attacked or threatened NO LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY TO RETREAT OR ESCAPE. Now, civilly, all facts will be taken into consideration, but carefully spelled out criminal laws say, in effect, that if he starts it, and it's about deadly force, fear of death or great bodily harm to you or another, he's paid for...no need to tuck your tail and run, even in public. Now, back to your post to finish reading the rest....
 

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I'd like to encourage you to compare the performance of the "FBI" .38+P 158gr. lead SWC load to the 148gr. HBWC you use in your house gun-the only way I'd carry your load is inverted with 3 gr. Bullseye-still not as effective, and not devastating at all...DOJ is a joke when they recommend one load and carry another...our Gov't at work again...I'll trust the street-proven loads...and if you believe a target wadcutter won't go through a door or wall and still hurt or kill someone...take some out to the range or read Steven Camp or Box-O-Truth or others who've DONE the research...with the actual materials you speak of...I'm not against our Gunsmith, but your legal and ammo advice don't reflect the level of expertise that your gunsmithing does, and we need to all be careful about what we put out...I've been guilty of misinformation where Glocks were concerned, and my intentions were as pure as yours...we all learn here. One last point, in La., the laws are Napoleonic (SP?) and INTENT must be proven in most deadly force cases...what you carry and how it's modified and what's the load and what your verbal history is do have a great bearing on whether the intent that is necessary to have committed the actual crime---the prosecutor uses the above and other things to show what your intent was...other states may have intent-based laws, I only know La. In many states, intent has nothing to do with whether you committed the crime...all is required is that the state prove that the statute was violated, and that you did the violating...intent will not be considered except in the sentencing portion. I am not a lawyer either, just many years actual on the street and through the court system experience...and, by the grace of God, I never lost a case...got a guilty everytime I went for it..and never, by the way, had to pull the trigger on a human being.
 
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