Side arm (duty size) vs carbine

1917 Views 59 Replies 25 Participants Last post by amd6547, 1 d ago

maddmatter1970

Discussion Starter · 14 d ago (Edited)

Most things I was told many years ago, and ignored, have come back to be true as my understanding grew. A sidearms only use is to get you to a long gun.

One of those things that, at least for me, is the superiority of a long gun over a pistol.

It seems so obvious. But such a painful fact of life. My M9 did and does everything a gun is supposed to do. No reason you can't hit a running jackrabbit or cotton tail with one. No reason at all......

Except range. The difference on a target at 10 yards vs 25 yard and 50 yards maybe the 1/2 the width of your front post, and holdover. With your outstreched arm. I get point shooting, hell I do it subconciously fooling myself into "must be a combat hold" or some foolishness.

But enter the pcc. Tougher to carry? Yes. But success breads comfort, and comfort joy, and joy practice. So to sum it up I crunched some numbers...

I shoot my pcc 87.9% more than my 92fs as of this moment in time. Since 2019. Before that, my 92fs was my single 9x19 weapon. And I shot it alot, had copious amounts of training with it. I am still passable with it. The ONLY advantage it has is portability. No small consideration, but I want to devise a way to make the pcc just as portable.

I CAN hit a moving eye socket with my pcc now. Or my ar's. Doing it with the pistol is simply luck.

Mission accepted.

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michael.nault65

· #2 · 14 d ago

The only problem is what to do with the carbine when two handed tasks are necessary, and one is alone. It's a problem that can be solved, but would the solution be better with a SMG or a holstered duty pistol? I don't claim to know, but I think it deserves analysis. In actual deployment, I also favor a long gun. But life demands constant two handed attention.

Reactions: 3

Corndog

· #3 · 14 d ago

It’s hard to conceal a PCC.

While you’re putting your Carbine contraption together (assuming you are partially disassembling it to make it smaller), I will be shooting at you with my pistol. So, you might want to practice with the wife throwing dishes at you…..for realism.

Reactions: 5

maddmatter1970

Discussion Starter · #4 · 14 d ago

Corndog said:
It’s hard to conceal a PCC.

While you’re putting your Carbine contraption together (assuming you are partially disassembling it to make it smaller), I will be shooting at you with my pistol. So, you might want to practice with the wife throwing dishes at you…..for realism.

Got the flying dishes covered!

(Not to ccw, for main carry around my place)

Reactions: 5

maddmatter1970

Discussion Starter · #5 · 14 d ago

michael.nault65 said:
The only problem is what to do with the carbine when two handed tasks are necessary, and one is alone. It's a problem that can be solved, but would the solution be better with a SMG or a holstered duty pistol? I don't claim to know, but I think it deserves analysis. In actual deployment, I also favor a long gun. But life demands constant two handed attention.

I actually have been practicing an old squirell hunting trick often. The ruger is heavy one handed. I am a sort of a strong dud (dude) and two shots one handed is about all I can do standing unsupported. But, if I rest it on a branch/knife/handlebar/other.... one handed operation is quite fun! For those two one handed shots, the first one is usually (6 out of 10) on taget with the second 1-2" low. Nowas with my beretta, at say 30 yards one handed I will tag a small cannalope for 17 rounds. But still not as precise. Idk just rambling.

Reactions: 2

ngashooter

· #6 · 14 d ago

A handgun is for when you don't expect trouble. A longarm is for when you do.

Reactions: 5

brnwlms

· #7 · 14 d ago

A long gun, from a purely fighting perspective, is superior. However, a long gun is not always practical. My church comes to mind. There are a bunch of concealed scattered throughout the building, but there are a handful of open carry black shirt-marked security. No one has a long gun, even the marked security. So never slack on practicing with the duty gun. One might not always have a long gun at hand or it be an option.

Reactions: 5

Bepe

· #8 · 14 d ago

Long gun rules. Even 9mm carbine as compared to a pistol. Get that scabbard. Mount it on the 4 wheeler in an accessible area. You can always have the carbine with you even if you are working. Tucked safely away but at hand.

go.skimresources.com

AR-STONER AR-15 Tactical Rifle Scabbard Black

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Spot an unsuspecting yote and the carbine won't take much time to deploy. Surely not as fast as a handgun but the extra range, accuracy and velocity should still give you an advantage.

Bepe

Reactions: 5

DaddyO66

· #9 · 14 d ago

One of my defense instructors says being easy to conceal is the only thing a handgun does well. A pistol wound is much more survivable than a rifle wound.

Reactions: 4

Andrettski

· #10 · 14 d ago

maddmatter1970 said:
Most things I was told many years ago, and ignored, have come back to be true as my understanding grew. A sidearms only use is to get you to a long gun.

One of those things that, at least for me, is the superiority of a long gun over a pistol.

It seems so obvious. But such a painful fact of life. My M9 did and does everything a gun is supposed to do. No reason you can't hit a running jackrabbit or cotton tail with one. No reason at all......

Except range. The difference on a target at 10 yards vs 25 yard and 50 yards maybe the 1/2 the width of your front post, and holdover. With your outstreched arm. I get point shooting, hell I do it subconciously fooling myself into "must be a combat hold" or some foolishness.

But enter the pcc. Tougher to carry? Yes. But success breads comfort, and comfort joy, and joy practice. So to sum it up I crunched some numbers...

I shoot my pcc 87.9% more than my 92fs as of this moment in time. Since 2019. Before that, my 92fs was my single 9x19 weapon. And I shot it alot, had copious amounts of training with it. I am still passable with it. The ONLY advantage it has is portability. No small consideration, but I want to devise a way to make the pcc just as portable.

I CAN hit a moving eye socket with my pcc now. Or my ar's. Doing it with the pistol is simply luck.

Mission accepted.

AR 9 pistole,(9" barrel) mine isn't a takedown but will still fit in a relatively small pack with 2 or 3 stick mags. Plus you could still holster a G17 or G19 and use the 17 round mags for both if 'Size And Weight Constraints' is an issue. These 9mm PCC's are damn accurate to 100 yds. But for GTW I'd want an AR15 5.56 or 300 blk out

Air gun Trigger Machine gun Gun barrel Gas

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laidlerj

· #11 · 14 d ago

As with so many things it life, it depends…

My go-to in troubled times is a long gun - I like to be able to stop trouble when it’s at a distance, preferably in another zip code. Even if it’s pistol-caliber, a carbine is more stable and easier to hit with.

However….

Sometimes trouble just shows up on your porch unannounced, like in-laws you can’t stand. In a true “close quarters battle”, like inside a house or inside a car, even a carbine can be too unwieldy to maneuver and - worst of all - the muzzle can be deflected or grabbed. A pistol is just the tool for combat at conversational distances.

I grew up in the desert and learned to carry a rifle for dealing with trouble before it got close enough to be a danger, like coyotes stalking the livestock or a porcupine that won’t leave the apple trees alone. But I also carried a pistol, for “pop-up” problems, like an irritable badger charging out of his hole.

Growing up in country where sight lines of twenty miles were the rule, I never had much use for a pistol caliber carbine - I needed a flatter trajectory - but your situation may be different.

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Andrettski

· #12 · 14 d ago

laidlerj said:
As with so many things it life, it depends…

My go-to in troubled times is a long gun - I like to be able to stop trouble when it’s at a distance, preferably in another zip code. Even if it’s pistol-caliber, a carbine is more stable and easier to hit with.

However….

Sometimes trouble just shows up on your porch unannounced, like in-laws you can’t stand. In a true “close quarters battle”, like inside a house or inside a car, even a carbine can be too unwieldy to maneuver and - worst of all - the muzzle can be deflected or grabbed. A pistol is just the tool for combat at conversational distances.

I grew up in the desert and learned to carry a rifle for dealing with trouble before it got close enough to be a danger, like coyotes stalking the livestock or a porcupine that won’t leave the apple trees alone. But I also carried a pistol, for “pop-up” problems, like an irritable badger charging out of his hole.

Growing up in country where sight lines of twenty miles were the rule, I never had much use for a pistol caliber carbine - I needed a flatter trajectory - but your situation may be different.

Yeah understood, I live in the Pac NW, forests, hills and mountains everywhere so bad things can happen around every corner w/o much warning. We've had 3 cougar sightings, 2 on our own property and the other only a quarter mile away in 18 years we've been here currently. I pack a pistol on walks or just going to my mailbox. Not to mention the very bad bipeds that frequently take detours off I-5 and are camping overnight in their vehicles between Seattle and Portland. Everything from Canada to Mexico uses I-5 out here.

Reactions: 5

laidlerj

· #13 · 14 d ago

Andrettski said:
Yeah understood, I live in the Pac NW, forests, hills and mountains everywhere so bad things can happen around every corner w/o much warning. We've had 3 cougar sightings, 2 on our own property and the other only a quarter mile away in 18 years we've been here currently. I pack a pistol on walks or just going to my mailbox. Not to mention the very bad bipeds that frequently take detours off I-5 and are camping overnight in their vehicles between Seattle and Portland. Everything from Canada to Mexico uses I-5 out here.

I know what you mean - I’m in NW Oregon now, so unpleasant things with jaws that bite and claws that catch can pop out of the undergrowth right at your elbow, inside the muzzle distance of even a carbine in the time it takes to react. Not to mention the growing number of feral humans that have been multiplying like rabbits because well-intentioned people insist on feeding them…

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maddmatter1970

Discussion Starter · #14 · 14 d ago

Jaberwokie!

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maddmatter1970

Discussion Starter · #15 · 14 d ago

Andrettski said:
AR 9 pistole,(9" barrel) mine isn't a takedown but will still fit in a relatively small pack with 2 or 3 stick mags. Plus you could still holster a G17 or G19 and use the 17 round mags for both if 'Size And Weight Constraints' is an issue. These 9mm PCC's are damn accurate to 100 yds. But for GTW I'd want an AR15 5.56 or 300 blk out
View attachment 197802

I have AR's too, but the sound carries badly here. The pcc with a 16" tube is just a fart!

Reactions: 5

JohnnyDollar

· #16 · 14 d ago

When a man with a .45 meets a man with a rifle, the man with a pistol will be a dead man. That's an old Mexican Proverb...and it's true.

.....Ramon Rojo

Reactions: 3

Model 52

· #17 · 13 d ago

2

I’m in general agreement that no one with any training or sense intentionally walks into a gun fight with a pistol, if they have a rifle or carbine available.

Since the ATF has reversed itself and is now classifying braced pistols as SBRs that possible technical exception is about 10 days away from being eliminated.

My braced MP5 will easily and accurately engage torso sized targets out to 200 yards and the longer barrel gives the 9mm round a boost, with terminal performance on par with a similar weight .357 Mag round fired from a 4” revolver.

Removing the brace does reduce the accuracy. Still, with a well designed sling properly used to stabilize the pistol, a ”pistol“ like the MP5 can still be fired with good accuracy on torso sized targets out to pretty impressive distances.

The same is true with my braced AR-9. It doesn’t give up much in velocity to a 16” AR-9, but also isn’t much shorter or lighter, and is still too large and heavy to conceal carry.

The advantages of size and weight are why even a full size duty pistol will always be preferable to carry in a low threat environment than a rifle, carbine, or any of the “pistols” based on rifle/carbine platforms.

Similarly the greater weight and reduced concealability of rifles, carbines, and pistols based on rifles and carbines will continue to be used in only about 1 percent of gun crimes.

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krag96

· #18 · 13 d ago

For most of the situations you fellows are describing, I would prefer an 1894/94 Winchester carbine in .30/30 tucked through the left side under my belt and a handgun on my right. Might seem awkward reading about it, but it works very well. The Winchester pulls like it's in a cross draw saddle scabbard.

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Foundation Horse

· #19 · 13 d ago

krag96 said:
For most of the situations you fellows are describing, I would prefer an 1894/94 Winchester carbine in .30/30 tucked through the left side under my belt and a handgun on my right. Might seem awkward reading about it, but it works very well. The Winchester pulls like it's in a cross draw saddle scabbard.

How would a "Mare's Leg" work in this set up>?

Reactions: 1

maddmatter1970

Discussion Starter · #20 · 13 d ago (Edited)

Model 52 said:
I’m in general agreement that no one with any training or sense intentionally walks into a gun fight with a pistol, if they have a rifle or carbine available.

Since the ATF has reversed itself and is now classifying braced pistols as SBRs that possible technical exception is about 10 days away from being eliminated.

My braced MP5 will easily and accurately engage torso sized targets out to 200 yards and the longer barrel gives the 9mm round a boost, with terminal performance on par with a similar weight .357 Mag round fired from a 4” revolver.

Removing the brace does reduce the accuracy. Still, with a well designed sling properly used to stabilize the pistol, a ”pistol“ like the MP5 can still be fired with good accuracy on torso sized targets out to pretty impressive distances.

The same is true with my braced AR-9. It doesn’t give up much in velocity to a 16” AR-9, but also isn’t much shorter or lighter, and is still too large and heavy to conceal carry.

The advantages of size and weight are why even a full size duty pistol will always be preferable to carry in a low threat environment than a rifle, carbine, or any of the “pistols” based on rifle/carbine platforms.

Similarly the greater weight and reduced concealability of rifles, carbines, and pistols based on rifles and carbines will continue to be used in only about 1 percent of gun crimes.

You touched on one of my LONG held beliefs that "bucks" the norm. Comming from me I know it will be no surprise, but I will put it out there anyway....

"Gun crime" and "gun regulation". 1st let me make it 10000% clear, I believe the 2nd amendment is all that should have ever been said and there should be NO, ZILCH, NADDA law/reg that in anyway, hampers any legal citizen allowed to vote who pays taxes right to own and use any firearm. Mouthfull ok..

If someone was serious about "curbing gun violence" with regulation, by VOLUME the rifle, the shot gun, the semi or full auto varieties would NOT be the target.

The evil humans do, they do in the DARK where it is HARD TO SEE. EASILY 'CONCEALED'....
like a pistol.

Since the "powers that be" instead consistantly attack my beloved semi auto rifles and carbines, I KNOW they are full of crap and the true goal is to weaken tax payers.

See what I did there?

Small, light, carbines are the staff, yay though I walk through the valley of death.

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