Side arm (duty size) vs carbine

1857 Views 59 Replies 25 Participants Last post by amd6547, 10 h ago

maddmatter1970

Discussion Starter · 13 d ago (Edited)

Most things I was told many years ago, and ignored, have come back to be true as my understanding grew. A sidearms only use is to get you to a long gun.

One of those things that, at least for me, is the superiority of a long gun over a pistol.

It seems so obvious. But such a painful fact of life. My M9 did and does everything a gun is supposed to do. No reason you can't hit a running jackrabbit or cotton tail with one. No reason at all......

Except range. The difference on a target at 10 yards vs 25 yard and 50 yards maybe the 1/2 the width of your front post, and holdover. With your outstreched arm. I get point shooting, hell I do it subconciously fooling myself into "must be a combat hold" or some foolishness.

But enter the pcc. Tougher to carry? Yes. But success breads comfort, and comfort joy, and joy practice. So to sum it up I crunched some numbers...

I shoot my pcc 87.9% more than my 92fs as of this moment in time. Since 2019. Before that, my 92fs was my single 9x19 weapon. And I shot it alot, had copious amounts of training with it. I am still passable with it. The ONLY advantage it has is portability. No small consideration, but I want to devise a way to make the pcc just as portable.

I CAN hit a moving eye socket with my pcc now. Or my ar's. Doing it with the pistol is simply luck.

Mission accepted.

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JohnnyDollar

· #41 · 9 d ago

Seems everyone generally agrees that a longer barrel makes for longer, more accurate shooting.

Corndog said:
<snip>
If you stuck the 5.56 round into a PCC, then you would have something…😎

Wouldn't that just be a carbine?

Reactions: 3

Model 52

· #42 · 9 d ago

5

maddmatter1970 said:
If you have not, do a meat target with a nice +p 124 out of a 16" @ 70 yards. Do the same with you favorite 5.56/..223. I was surprised. After 100 yards, no 9mm is reliable. And given the unreal option of "juat one gun" of course I would have a .223 wylde....
But my observation is inside 100, the 9 is fine and you could argue more efficient (price, burnt powder, limited range) for the application from a 16" barrel with the +p loading.
Just this hill jacks opinion, nothing serious !

A well designed 9mm pistol caliber carbine, and many SMG based semi auto firearms with a stock, are capable of good accuracy at 100 yards and that’s generally considered the effective range for SMGs like the UZI, Colt 6450 and MP5 in semi auto mode.

From a carbine, at 100 yards the 9mm Luger will have remaining velocity and energy very close to the same velocity and energy the same round would have at the muzzle fired from a 4 or 5 inch pistol.

——

The 5.56mm takes a hit in a carbine, losing about 125 fps in a 16” carbine versus a 20” rifle. However in a 8” pistol the 5.56mm is down around 2200 fps, well below the threshold for tumbling and fragmentation and almost at the threshold for tearing in the temporary expansion cavity.

Which always makes me wonder why the government is attempting to discourage braced pistols with shorter barrels that would be far less lethal if used in a crime.

Guess because Dettleback regards them as being ”unusually dangerous”, which is a misstatement of NFA 1934 and related case law that requires a firearm to be both “dangerous” and “unusual“ (meaning not in common use. (And “Common use” was defined in a supreme court case over an NJ ban to mean 200,000 or more).

Apparently it’s ok for the ATF to change a noun into an adjective in its interpretation of statute and congressional intent.

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Corndog

· #43 · 9 d ago

JohnnyDollar said:
Seems everyone generally agrees that a longer barrel makes for longer, more accurate shooting.

Wouldn't that just be a carbine?

Why yes sir it would. It would be an RCC.

Reactions: 3

JTJ

· #44 · 9 d ago

The 9mm gets max velocity in 10"-12". 16" barrels are just to make them rifles.

maddmatter1970

Discussion Starter · #45 · 9 d ago

JTJ said:
The 9mm gets max velocity in 10"-12". 16" barrels are just to make them rifles.

I do not doubt that, a nice side effect of the extra barrel on mine is there is NO discernable flash if the moon is out and its not very noisy at all. Like a hefty .22lr. But a 12" would be more portable for sure!

Reactions: 2

JTJ

· #46 · 9 d ago

maddmatter1970 said:
I do not doubt that, a nice side effect of the extra barrel on mine is there is NO discernable flash if the moon is out and its not very noisy at all. Like a hefty .22lr. But a 12" would be more portable for sure!

Touching off a 5.56x45 in a 10.5" is lightning and thunder by comparison. The 9mm PCC excels at low flash and bang.

Reactions: 3

Ralph P

· #47 · 9 d ago

DaddyO66 said:
One of my defense instructors says being easy to conceal is the only thing a handgun does well. A pistol wound is much more survivable than a rifle wound.

I was taught two to the chest, two to the head and one to the groin. Will stop them almost immediately

JTJ

· #48 · 9 d ago

Yeah but they better be standing when you do it. Evidently they can tell if you shot them while they were down.

Ralph P

· #49 · 9 d ago

JTJ said:
Yeah but they better be standing when you do it. Evidently they can tell if you shot them while they were down.

I don't expect them to get up and talk, and if they have a weapon pointed at me I will shoot if they are up or down. Survival of the fittest and fastest, dead men cannot testify......

JTJ

· #50 · 9 d ago

Ralph P said:
I don't expect them to get up and talk, and if they have a weapon pointed at me I will shoot if they are up or down. Survival of the fittest and fastest, dead men cannot testify......

Forensics says dead men can testify.

Reactions: 1

rvance

· #51 · 8 d ago

maddmatter1970 said:
Most things I was told many years ago, and ignored, have come back to be true as my understanding grew. A sidearms only use is to get you to a long gun.

One of those things that, at least for me, is the superiority of a long gun over a pistol.

It seems so obvious. But such a painful fact of life. My M9 did and does everything a gun is supposed to do. No reason you can't hit a running jackrabbit or cotton tail with one. No reason at all......

Except range. The difference on a target at 10 yards vs 25 yard and 50 yards maybe the 1/2 the width of your front post, and holdover. With your outstreched arm. I get point shooting, hell I do it subconciously fooling myself into "must be a combat hold" or some foolishness.

But enter the pcc. Tougher to carry? Yes. But success breads comfort, and comfort joy, and joy practice. So to sum it up I crunched some numbers...

I shoot my pcc 87.9% more than my 92fs as of this moment in time. Since 2019. Before that, my 92fs was my single 9x19 weapon. And I shot it alot, had copious amounts of training with it. I am still passable with it. The ONLY advantage it has is portability. No small consideration, but I want to devise a way to make the pcc just as portable.

I CAN hit a moving eye socket with my pcc now. Or my ar's. Doing it with the pistol is simply luck.

Mission accepted.

People have shot nickels tossed in the air with a 1873 Colt 45. You just need to practice.

Reactions: 1

maddmatter1970

Discussion Starter · #52 · 8 d ago

rvance said:
People have shot nickels tossed in the air with a 1873 Colt 45. You just need to practice.

From 15 feet. Sure. I can't but can do clays. Send it from a skeet launcher out to 20 yards, My pistol skills start looking shabby!

JTJ

· #53 · 8 d ago

rvance said:
People have shot nickels tossed in the air with a 1873 Colt 45. You just need to practice.

My wife, 2 children and myself were in the playground of an RV park when bullets started dropping around us. I got us out of there quick. Had the manger call the police and I went hunting. I found the 3 idiots tossing dirt clods in the air and shooting at them with their pistols. Made sure they stayed put until the police arrived.

Reactions: 1

maddmatter1970

Discussion Starter · #54 · 8 d ago

JTJ said:
My wife, 2 children and myself were in the playground of an RV park when bullets started dropping around us. I got us out of there quick. Had the manger call the police and I went hunting. I found the 3 idiots tossing dirt clods in the air and shooting at them with their pistols. Made sure they stayed put until the police arrived.

When I shoot clays with a handgun, there is 8 miles of my dads dairy/wheat fields. Not something I do very often. Funny note, my mom gets a tickle out of watching me, my sister/bil and my dad do that.

paladin49

· #55 · 7 d ago

maddmatter1970 said:
Most things I was told many years ago, and ignored, have come back to be true as my understanding grew. A sidearms only use is to get you to a long gun.

One of those things that, at least for me, is the superiority of a long gun over a pistol.

It seems so obvious. But such a painful fact of life. My M9 did and does everything a gun is supposed to do. No reason you can't hit a running jackrabbit or cotton tail with one. No reason at all......

Except range. The difference on a target at 10 yards vs 25 yard and 50 yards maybe the 1/2 the width of your front post, and holdover. With your outstreched arm. I get point shooting, hell I do it subconciously fooling myself into "must be a combat hold" or some foolishness.

But enter the pcc. Tougher to carry? Yes. But success breads comfort, and comfort joy, and joy practice. So to sum it up I crunched some numbers...

I shoot my pcc 87.9% more than my 92fs as of this moment in time. Since 2019. Before that, my 92fs was my single 9x19 weapon. And I shot it alot, had copious amounts of training with it. I am still passable with it. The ONLY advantage it has is portability. No small consideration, but I want to devise a way to make the pcc just as portable.

I CAN hit a moving eye socket with my pcc now. Or my ar's. Doing it with the pistol is simply luck.

Mission accepted.

Yes but can you take that pcc or AR into the mall?
I will freely admit the benefits of a long gun over a pistol for many situations, but I also know that I get into more situations that make the long gun impossible or at the least impractical.
If I could I would carry 2 pistols, shotgun, rifle, 2 bandoliers, 4 extra mags, etc to cover all circumstances. But the car isn't big enough and I am not strong enough to carry all that equipment.

Reactions: 2

JTJ

· #56 · 7 d ago

A pistol with a red dot is capable of very good accuracy out to 50 yards or more. Shooters not so much but there are exceptions.

Reactions: 1

KimberproSS

· #57 · 3 d ago

maddmatter1970 said:
If you have not, do a meat target with a nice +p 124 out of a 16" @ 70 yards. Do the same with your favorite 5.56/..223. I was surprised. After 100 yards, no 9mm is reliable. And given the unreal option of "juat one gun" of course I would have a .223 wylde....
But my observation is inside 100, the 9 is fine and you could argue more efficient (price, burnt powder, limited range) for the application from a 16" barrel with the +p loading.
Just this hill jacks opinion, nothing serious !

I have a Ruger Deerfield carbine .44 REM. mag. If the SHTF I would grab it my Redhawk and my AR15. The Deerfield would be my close quarters firearm. Handles quick, hits hard and has been very reliable. Only drawback is the rotary magazine.

Reactions: 1

Armybrat

· #58 · 22 h ago

JohnnyDollar said:
I have a Marlin Camp 9.

My brother has one in .45ACP.

These are mine:

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JohnnyDollar

· #59 · 13 h ago

Armybrat said:
My brother has one in .45ACP.

These are mine:
View attachment 198735

I got my Marlin Camp 9 in a trade, friend of mine traded it to me for an IBM PC.
That PC is long gone, but I still have the Marlin.

it's heavy for it's size. but it's a sturdy carbine.
I always wanted the .45ACP model, but just never came across one.

Reactions: 1

amd6547

· #60 · 10 h ago

I went the PCC route for a few years, having owned several. Uzi, Marlin , Hipoint, owned and had a lot of fun with all.
But, at some point, I went to the original PDW for my light HD carbine needs… M1 Carbine.

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