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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Mentally tossing around a carry load for my new Wiley Clapp SP101 based on a cast 158gr LHP. Essentially a higher velocity FBI load that I can build with components I already own. I believe the LHP will be less likely to ricochet than a JHP and will hopefully not over penetrate as JHP bullets can. I also have Remington 125gr SJHP but no 125gr cast for practice unfortunately. I discovered Buffalo Bore's enhanced .38spcl FBI load while researching this endeavor and it appears that a 1,100fps LHP defense load has some merit. Anybody using something similar in their SP's ? Please forgo the "handloads for defense" commentary, I consider it to be a non-issue.
 

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. I believe the LHP will be less likely to ricochet than a JHP and will hopefully not over penetrate as JHP bullets can..
??

The SP101 with a 110gr Sierra Blitz, and similar, loaded even medium hot, has little or no risk of over penetration. Any bullet that doesn't disintegrate on impact will bounce.

With that in mind, the properties of lead bullets lend them to ricochets as much or more than most jacketed designs. You generally can't push them as fast, and within the velocity they are designed to open, few shed much lead, or even mushroom much, if at all.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I like the lead bullets over jacketed at lower velocities. We shoot plates at my range and the lead bullets are gentler than jacketed on them, have watched lead bullets disintegrate many times hitting plates. The old FBI load was for decades considered THE load that would actually expand at snubby velocities. I like the Speer 135gr SBHP but can't find anybody online that actually has them in stock so I'll be using what I do have at the moment, #1000 or so 158gr TCBB from Penn and Speer 158gr LSW-HP. If those don't work I'll try the 125gr Remington JHP I also have on hand and see how they do. Happy Holidays !!
 

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The Buffalo Bore .38 Special load you mention the only place I have found this loading is online! None of the LGS here in Utah seem to carry the Buffalo Bore .38 Special loads but seem to carry Buffalo Bore in everything else .357. 9mm .380 but not .38 Special??
 

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Based on the comment you made, it seems like you're pretty practically minded, so I'll offer this thought:

Misses travel a lot farther than any over-penetrating slug ever will. In defensive situations, you're highly likely to miss. Be aware of your surroundings and what is beyond your target. A shot with someone near behind your assailant is a bad shot, whether they're struck by a miss or an over penetrating slug.

Personally, I would'n't favor a LHP over a properly designed JHP, and if you're truly worried about over-penetration, a lighter pill will tend to penetrate less than a heavy one. I like to hunt with my SD rounds to ensure their efficacy - no speculation based on advertising copy or performance on steel plates or phone books or 2x4's. Real flesh and bone will tell the tale better than any simulation.

I would expect the 158 LHP to be a high performing defense option, among a great number of other high performing defense options.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
I discovered it at Midway, and from there went to BB's website. I can (and have) worked up JHP loads in the SP's before but since I have a surplus of lead components right now I figure I'll give this a try. The Speer LHP is a bit harder compared to other LHP's so I'm hoping leading won't be an issue. I have some AA#5 that works well for large case capacity/short barrel guns in my experience and flash isn't as bad as the typical "magnum" powders either.

Hey VT just saw your post while writing a reply to an earlier post. I agree that a miss is a bad shot, and agree regarding no-shoot targets as well. I've done a fair bit of shooting over the last 4 decades and have done some action shooting as well, but I no longer hunt alas. For woods walking I'll build something more appropriate to be sure, something like a Hornady 140gr JHP over some Lil Gun or #2400. Where I live Coyote or Coy Dogs are most likely encountered critters and I reckon a decent mid-level .357 load will make short work of them.
 

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I am carrying Speer 158 grain LHP Niclad bullets in my Charter Arms Undercover and my model 85 Taurus.........robin
 

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When using your own "custom" rounds, a DA or a plaintif's lawyer could bring in a "hired gun, balistics expert" and bring out the guilty intent of loading to kill and not just trying to stop the threat. Even if you were just trying to defend yourself.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Pretty sure I requested we forgo the alleged legal ramifications about using hand loaded ammunition. BUT do you really think a DA or opposing counsel won't research BB ammo, or Glaser or Corbon, ALL of which are marketed as "terminal performance" ammo ?? Please refrain from further comment on the subject.
 

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Pretty sure I requested we forgo the alleged legal ramifications about using hand loaded ammunition. BUT do you really think a DA or opposing counsel won't research BB ammo, or Glaser or Corbon, ALL of which are marketed as "terminal performance" ammo ?? Please refrain from further comment on the subject.
Key word being "alleged".

Sorry, couldn't help myself. :D

I carry 158's, cast from pure lead w/gas check.
 

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When using your own "custom" rounds, a DA or a plaintif's lawyer could bring in a "hired gun, balistics expert" and bring out the guilty intent of loading to kill and not just trying to stop the threat. Even if you were just trying to defend yourself.
This is brought up a lot in gun forums, but there is no record of this argument being used successfully. That's not to say that no DA ever tried it, but there is no record that it was successful.

The legal reality is that if your intention was to use deadly force, it doesn't matter that you used ammunition that was designed to kill, since that was your intention. If you are justified in using deadly force, then you are justified in using ammunition that has "enhanced lethality".

Now, where this argument did come up was in lawsuits over police shootings in the 1970's, when departments were switching to JHP ammunition. It was argued - unsuccessfully - that hollow points constituted "excessive force".


Jim
 

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Why over think all of this ?
Use a tried and true factory load, 125 JHP at about 1500 FPS, will be a little less in a shorter barrel.

It's proven man stopper, go watch some testing of the load, I hand load all kinds of rounds, My Sig P320 45 ACP uses SIG 230 grain Sig defensive JHP, My wife uses Hornady critical defense 125 grain JHP in her SP 101 3"

A heavy lead bullet at speed will penetrate more.
 

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Pretty sure I requested we forgo the alleged legal ramifications about using hand loaded ammunition. BUT do you really think a DA or opposing counsel won't research BB ammo, or Glaser or Corbon, ALL of which are marketed as "terminal performance" ammo ?? Please refrain from further comment on the subject.
Even at one in a million that legal ramifications would ever would be an issue, on top of that one in a million you will ever have to fire a shot in self defense, I would still load all that carry ammo with matching brass stamps, maybe all in Remington brass since they still work with lead these days, and then "forget" where I got that carry ammo. That's what I would do if it were me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
In regards to the 125gr JHP I have been using Remington's bullet in my 4" GP and countless K-frame S & W for a looong time, and I agree it's been "King of the Hill" for quite some time. However it can over penetrate AND ricochet when loaded to 1,400 or better FPS (as my GP loads are). My whole premise was to load a safer low-velocity carry load with enough power to get the job done using on-hand components to mimic Buffalo Bore's enhanced FBI load for URBAN defense.

If an attorney or "expert witness" wants to question my load of carry I'll refer back to my original intent when I designed it, safer to prevent collateral damage. I also am not aware of a single case where the choice of handloaded ammunition resulted in a conviction, typically thrown in court to "show intent" and muddy the waters by an attorney with a weak case.

IF I DO have to use a firearm to defend myself or a loved one, I WILL be in complete accordance with my state's laws governing the use of deadly force and any attempt to discredit me by my ammunition will not even get off the ground, period.

Can we get back to discussing ammunition and guns now please ?
 

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Can you clarify if we're talking about .38 or .357 loads? Reading the whole thread, I don't think everybody is on the same page.

I don't reload so this may be totally off base, but when you say "safer low velocity" - wouldn't lower velocity imply safer? (In terms of over penetration) and if you want lower velocity and more "power" wouldn't that imply a heavier bullet? I think if you try to mimic BBs load, I doubt you'll be able to get to their velocities anyway, so maybe that's exactly what you want.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Slim, I'm talking about a .357M load with a bit more power than BB's enhanced FBI load. Roughly 1,000-1,1000 FPS. I can and have driven 158 lead bullets from my 4" GP at over 1,500fps (L'iL Gun powder) so making 1,100fps will be child's play in that regard. Since I have both lead hollow point and TCBB bullets in 158gr I was going to do some experimentation and see where it goes. Soft lead bullets typically spatter when hitting harder material such as steel plates or even asphalt depending on the angle, hence the safer (hopefully) nature of this load in an urban setting. See where I'm headed ?
 
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