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"The Real Deal"
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So I am trying to figure this out. I have several 22's, rifles , pistols, you name it. Well recently i have had lightning strike twice. So I own a north american arms 5 shot 22LR revolver...the mini. It at times has spent 5 or 6 months in my center console in my vehicle, sometimes longer. I normally only load stingers into it. Well the previous time I took it out to shoot, plink, I had 4 squibs, I chunked the last round. Well I thought hmm maybe that ammo is a bad lot. I tried some different ammo, stingers, mini mags and no issues. So I took it home and cleaned it. I then grabbed some more stingers from a different box and loaded them into the revolver. It had probably been 5 or 6 months, then this last weekend I took it out for a friend to try. Guess what squibs again. So I tried a box I brought along of stingers, and fired them with no issue. So my theory is, is the temperature variance messing with the powder, or primer being stored in my vehicle for a length of time, inside the factory loaded stingers? But here is another thought, I have a pistol stored in every vehicle, mostly 9mm auto's that have been exposed to the same temp. variances and time lengths without any issues ever. So what could be the cause? The gun functions fine with ammo from cache in my house. As for now the mini revolver has been placed in my gun safe until I can figure out whats going on. Pulling that pistol for a defensive situation and getting a fizzle is not a desirable outcome. It really stumps me since I do not have this problem with the glock 19, p89, and p95's with my reloads or factory ammo. What do you guys think? :confused:
 

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The only thing that I can think of is that the heat is causing the primer in the rim to melt enough to lose its ability to ignite. Rimfire ammo primer is only around the rim and is directly in contact with the powder charge. Centerfire primers are more robust if you will. So the primer should remain in its cup.
I suspect that you will be hearing a lot of criticism for leaving weapons in vehicles. They are your guns and vehicles your decisions to make. Just not something I would do.
 

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"The Real Deal"
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Discussion Starter #3
The only thing that I can think of is that the heat is causing the primer in the rim to melt enough to lose its ability to ignite. Rimfire ammo primer is only around the rim and is directly in contact with the powder charge. Centerfire primers are more robust if you will. So the primer should remain in its cup.
I suspect that you will be hearing a lot of criticism for leaving weapons in vehicles. They are your guns and vehicles your decisions to make. Just not something I would do.
You may be right. It stumps me, but thats a logical theory.

But as far as leaving a firearm in the car, thats normal here in NC, you know that. Let them critique me, I do not care. Only a very few know its there anyways, and I would rather have it there than it sitting home in my safe. I do have a ccw, and do carry concealed 99% of the time, but i do leave an extra in the vehcile in the event my wife needs it, and I am not in the vehicle. I cannot count the number of people that follow this same practice in my area, its just a normal thing I see regularly.
 

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Tacky, I'd get a hold of CCI and find out what they think. Myself I've left numerous different brands of .22LR and .22WMR in my garage in .30 caliber ammo cans and forgot about them being there for years, (10-15 years) in fact my hot water heater blew and spewed water all over the floor where the ammo cans were located. Since that time I've since shot up all that ammo with no problems. You might note that out here in is not unusual for the temperatures to hit 120 degrees.
 

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I'm wondering if the Stingers are jumping the crimp from the recoil of such a small pistol. Does it ever happen on the first shot? If so, that rules out my theory.
 

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Viceroy 🟩🟩🟩
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I'm wondering if the Stingers are jumping the crimp from the recoil of such a small pistol. Does it ever happen on the first shot? If so, that rules out my theory.
That's an interesting theory. Maybe you're on to something.

Otherwise I'd guess it has to be something about those stingers and heat. But that is sure not common with ammo in general. Over the years I've left lots of loaded 22s or 10/22 mags (and shotshells, etc) sitting on the hot dashboard of farm pickups and whatnot. My pickup in high school wasn't air conditioned and I'd usually have a loaded 22 in it. Never had a squib in my whole life except for one or two powerless "Colibris".
 

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"The Real Deal"
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Discussion Starter #7
Tacky, I'd get a hold of CCI and find out what they think. Myself I've left numerous different brands of .22LR and .22WMR in my garage in .30 caliber ammo cans and forgot about them being there for years, (10-15 years) in fact my hot water heater blew and spewed water all over the floor where the ammo cans were located. Since that time I've since shot up all that ammo with no problems. You might note that out here in is not unusual for the temperatures to hit 120 degrees.
I think I will contact them, since I have not witnessed this in any other rounds or calibers that are centerfire, or rimfire. Most of my ammo is stored indoors climate controlled in ammo cans with dissectant pouches. I have some surplus ammo military thats twice as old as I am, and it never acts up. These stingers are or have been produced in the last 5 years. I am puzzled.

I'm wondering if the Stingers are jumping the crimp from the recoil of such a small pistol. Does it ever happen on the first shot? If so, that rules out my theory.
Well the past 2 times it happened, it did it on all 5 rounds. I inserted other ammo that had been stored inside and all 5 went bang everytime. I really cant explain it.
 

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A squib is a round that fires but doesn't have enough energy to get out of the barrel. So are you pounding the squib out of the barrel before firing the next round?
From your description it sounds as if you are having a failure to fire which is different than a squib so I am a bit confused.
 

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A squib is a round that fires but doesn't have enough energy to get out of the barrel. So are you pounding the squib out of the barrel before firing the next round?
From your description it sounds as if you are having a failure to fire which is different than a squib so I am a bit confused.
I wondered about this as well..........So if they are just FTF, I would try them in another gun. If they fire in another gun and the fact the NA shoots fresh ammo fine, my GUESS would be that the firing mechanism is just weak enough and the prolonged heat weakens the priming compound just enough, that you have the perfect storm of the two. And the reason I say that, is because just exposure to heat should NOT weaken the priming compound enough to make it not fire. I have some 22 ammo that is both very old and been very hot. No problems shooting it.
 

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This is concerning given that Stingers are CCI's "premium" .22 LR and almost everyone who has an NAA .22 LR Mini loads it with Stingers......

I also use them in my Beretta Bobcat .22.

It would have to be a bad batch, people shoot Stingers in those belt-fed 10/22's , and you would think the heat of a chamber that just had 200 rounds through it would surpass the heat of a hot car.
 

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"The Real Deal"
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Discussion Starter #11
A squib is a round that fires but doesn't have enough energy to get out of the barrel. So are you pounding the squib out of the barrel before firing the next round?
From your description it sounds as if you are having a failure to fire which is different than a squib so I am a bit confused.
Sorry I mixed up the term squib,ftf in the description, forgive me. In fact its kinda between the 2. The bullet does exit the barrel, but it sounds more like a flintlock or delayed fire, even closely to a primer only fired colibri 22 rounds, like a flick pop sound.


This is concerning given that Stingers are CCI's "premium" .22 LR and almost everyone who has an NAA .22 LR Mini loads it with Stingers......

I also use them in my Beretta Bobcat .22.

It would have to be a bad batch, people shoot Stingers in those belt-fed 10/22's , and you would think the heat of a chamber that just had 200 rounds through it would surpass the heat of a hot car.
These rounds were from 2 different packages...but possibly the same lot. I am puzzled since I have always thought the same the stingers were premium rounds, and I have used them for years without any issues. I would not think that maybe repeated exposure to 160F would cause this issue. But I may be wrong. I know the gun functions fine, since other stingers and other mini mags, thunderbolts etc work without issue. This is a head stomper.
 

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Had the same issue with some Aquila hyper velocity...

Bought a brick a decade ago...Took two boxes to the range to shoot, and only shot one box...Forgot about the other box in the glove box for a year...

Took that to the range with another box from the brick that had been stored inside...The box from the glove compartment had squibs, and FTF...The box from inside storage fired every round without a hitch...

No more .22 stored in the truck...
 

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Tacky, Although I have never experienced poofer Stingers, I did get quite a few guns in my shop with similar issues using regular 22 LR ammo. Yes, it could be heat but I doubt it is anything more than a contributing factor. What I found sounds almost impossible but indeed it was the source of the problem .... excess oil. Gun oil is notorious for seeping into every nook and cranny ... especially when it is thinned by higher temps. I know the bullet seats quite tight in the case .... but it is not truly sealed so there is still enough space for oil to seep in via the ever so slight space between the bullet and case mouth. It takes a very miniscule amount of oil to dud smokeless gun powder ... so all you get is the muffled pop of the primer and just enough pressure to start the bullet into the bore. You also get a nice mess from the unburned powder ... sometimes a yellow or green blob.

So .... if you have been using oil on your gun .... any more than just a very fine film, it could be creeping into your cartridges and making them dud.
 

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Tacky, Although I have never experienced poofer Stingers, I did get quite a few guns in my shop with similar issues using regular 22 LR ammo. Yes, it could be heat but I doubt it is anything more than a contributing factor. What I found sounds almost impossible but indeed it was the source of the problem .... excess oil. Gun oil is notorious for seeping into every nook and cranny ... especially when it is thinned by higher temps. I know the bullet seats quite tight in the case .... but it is not truly sealed so there is still enough space for oil to seep in via the ever so slight space between the bullet and case mouth. It takes a very miniscule amount of oil to dud smokeless gun powder ... so all you get is the muffled pop of the primer and just enough pressure to start the bullet into the bore. You also get a nice mess from the unburned powder ... sometimes a yellow or green blob.

So .... if you have been using oil on your gun .... any more than just a very fine film, it could be creeping into your cartridges and making them dud.
Now THAT is valuable information! Thanks Iowegan.
 

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"The Real Deal"
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Discussion Starter #15
Tacky, Although I have never experienced poofer Stingers, I did get quite a few guns in my shop with similar issues using regular 22 LR ammo. Yes, it could be heat but I doubt it is anything more than a contributing factor. What I found sounds almost impossible but indeed it was the source of the problem .... excess oil. Gun oil is notorious for seeping into every nook and cranny ... especially when it is thinned by higher temps. I know the bullet seats quite tight in the case .... but it is not truly sealed so there is still enough space for oil to seep in via the ever so slight space between the bullet and case mouth. It takes a very miniscule amount of oil to dud smokeless gun powder ... so all you get is the muffled pop of the primer and just enough pressure to start the bullet into the bore. You also get a nice mess from the unburned powder ... sometimes a yellow or green blob.

So .... if you have been using oil on your gun .... any more than just a very fine film, it could be creeping into your cartridges and making them dud.
Thanks Iowegan, that is a logical answer I was looking for. I oil the guns with clp, but I run patches then a chamber mop through the cylinder and barrel. But what you suggested may very well be a possibility, thanks for the input.;)
 

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Tacky, Stinger brass is nickel plated so it doesn't show the presence of oil. Try this simple experiment and see what happens. Clean your little revolver again ... keeping the cleaning regimen the same. This time, chamber some brass case 22 LRs then let the gun sit in your vehicle ... just like before. After a few days, take a look at the ammo. If you see discoloration, it means your CLP has migrated to the ammo and will continue to seep into the cases ... even if they appear to be sealed tight.

BTW, this same issue is common with revolvers using centerfire ammunition. Oil can actually seep through the case neck or primer pocket and either dud the primer or dud the powder charge. This is why it is a good idea to burn up your duty ammo every month or so and replace it with fresh ammo. The solution is very simple .... don't use oil in a duty gun ... and if you do, use it very sparingly then wipe off the excess so the parts look and feel dry. Wet is bad!!!
 

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"The Real Deal"
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Discussion Starter #17
Tacky, Stinger brass is nickel plated so it doesn't show the presence of oil. Try this simple experiment and see what happens. Clean your little revolver again ... keeping the cleaning regimen the same. This time, chamber some brass case 22 LRs then let the gun sit in your vehicle ... just like before. After a few days, take a look at the ammo. If you see discoloration, it means your CLP has migrated to the ammo and will continue to seep into the cases ... even if they appear to be sealed tight.

BTW, this same issue is common with revolvers using centerfire ammunition. Oil can actually seep through the case neck or primer pocket and either dud the primer or dud the powder charge. This is why it is a good idea to burn up your duty ammo every month or so and replace it with fresh ammo. The solution is very simple .... don't use oil in a duty gun ... and if you do, use it very sparingly then wipe off the excess so the parts look and feel dry. Wet is bad!!!
Iowegan, thats solid advice. I am planning to experiment with your findings a see what happens. I really expect to see your exactly right. I have already decided to swap out carry ammo on a regular basis on the lcp, glock 42, and 19, and ruger p89 and p95. I had never looked at that being an issue, but I was wrong. This will be a fun experiment, and learning process. I am taking it that this could be an issue on a semi auto ar rifle as well. Do you think that the rounds loaded in the magazine on a semi are just as susceptible to oil penetrating the casing as the ones that are loaded into the chamber for extended periods if that magazine is left loaded in the firearm?
 

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Tacky, If you look closely, you will see military or NATO ammo has sealed and peened primers. This is done for a couple reasons ... it seals the cartridge so moisture and oil have a much harder time getting in and it helps prevent the primer from blowing out and ending up in the bowls of the gun. Most GIs were taught to run their M-16s wet (a topic for another thread) which makes it more likely to have a dud round in the chamber than if virtually no oil is used. Obviously reloaded ammo is more susceptible to oil contamination because the primers and bullets are not sealed.

The cartridges in the magazine itself are unlikely to succumb to oil penetration. That said, even though using oil or other petroleum based products in a magazine is highly discouraged due to attracting abrasive burnt powder particles, there are people that believe the concept .... "if it moves, oil it". When people run their semi-autos "wet", most anything can happen. Heat and gravity will compound the problems because virtually all petroleum based products will thin out when heated and just like spray-paint, will "run" in the direction of gravity. So with all that rhetoric, unless you personally support the oil companies, chances are your ammo in the magazine is safe.

Oil contamination in cartridges takes time ... it's not going to happen in just a day or two but when heat is applied .... ie leaving a gun in a vehicle during summer; it actually accelerates the process. I honestly have no idea how long it takes for oil to seep in and dud a cartridge .... I just know from personal experience that it does happen. About 1/3 of my gunsmithing experience was in Arizona where temperatures inside a vehicle can easily climb to 200 deg F ... probably even hotter. It took me a while to figure out but once I did, a simple question to the gun owner usually solved the mystery .... "do you oil your gun after you clean it and is it exposed to heat?"

Back in 1992, I was involved with a nation wide study on 40 S&W and 9mm "kabooms". Without going into all the details, when we investigated law enforcement procedures, we found most LEOs would unload their pistol at the end of their shift then reload it at the beginning of the next shift USING THE SAME CARTRIDGE IN THE CHAMBER each time. After just a few feeding cycles, the bullet would get pushed deeper in the case so after a month or two of cycling, when the cartridge was actually fired (usually at the range) chamber pressure would increase to a point that exceeded the design limits of the gun and result in a KABOOM. For this reason, it is very wise to chamber a fresh cartridge every time you load your pistol. Inspect the "once loaded" cartridge for COL and if it's OK, use it for range ammo. It's pretty hard to inspect for oil contamination but swapping the chambered round periodically will certainly reduce the risk of a dud. So far, I have only addressed semi-autos but virtually any type of rifle, handgun, or shotgun are subject to the same oil contamination issues.
 

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Excellent Advice
Iowegan--Thanks again for your excellent posts to Tacky and all of us; your information could save a life!! I've only had 2 ftf with my 22/45 and both were with the same magazine that I had over lubricated months before. Also, I now insure that there is no lube in the chamber area of my pistols; lube and burnt powder contributes to a failure to lock and coupled with bullet setback kabooms can happen or ftf.
M-16's--5 failures in an ambush at the MangYang pass in VN. A complicated subject, and I wish I had my 1968 M-16 comic book-lol. Everyone loved the busty blond.
Wrong Ammo--At a concealed carry class I observed a man fire 1 round and have his combo. 410/45 revolver lockup. He was using 3" shells instead of 21/2"..
Again, thanks for your help!
 
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