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Discussion Starter #1
(Topeka Capitol-Journal, 7/27/07)
A liquor store employee pulled his own gun when threatened and the would-be robber fled, Topeka Police said. Sgt. Ron Gish said officers responded to a report of an attempted armed robbery at about 11 pm Wednesday at Cormier Liquor, 2611 S.E. California.

Jim Cormier told police a man entered the store carrying a black gym bag from which he began to pull a handgun. The liquor store employee then displayed his own handgun, causing the would-be robber to run from the store into the alley.

The man was described as a black male, about 5 feet 4 inches tall and weighing about 135 pounds. He was wearing a black doo rag on his head a a black silky scarf around his neck that covered the lower part of his face.
 

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guess he didn't want to stick around for the party lol
 

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I'm kinda sot in my ways...I don't believe in pulling a gun to wave it around or threaten...in uniform or out, I'd tell them what was gonna happen, "easy or hard-up to you"...usually went easy...as a civilian, I'd not say the word gun till it was time to shoot-no brandishing or threatening charge that way...and if I pull it, it's going to be a justified shoot-type situation...a small word of wisdom for any new carriers or young officers....most of the people on the street don't scare by sticking a gun their direction...it's not the deterrant it was 40 years ago...it can even escalate the problem because what's left once you threaten deadly force? Will it work sometimes? Sure...but think long and hard before showing it as a civilian...and do that thinking long before it hits the fan..this clerk should have shot the perp the minute he drew...it could have provoked the gunman to shoot...and if his mind was on scaring him away...he wouldn't have reacted fast enough to save himself...just my old crusty opinions....
 

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The last time i was home to Topeka there was multiple shootings during that month. This is what made me finally decide to get my CCW after this Korea tour is over.
 

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As things get tougher, men work harder and smarter and the punks get braver and braver...and stupider and stupider...:D
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Have to agree with you Sheepdog. When the BG's gun is displayed, it's time for mine to go BANG! (and almost certainly at least one more bang)
 

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The Range Master at my local range was making the same points as you sheepdog and I was trying to rap my mind around that point of view because I do think of a firearm as a possible deterrent. The very last thing I want to do is end a life. I still don't know how I will react if the time comes. I am not sure if I want to be totally committed to only one course of action. I am just trying to have the right frame of mind, for I know many here have more experience, wisdom and knowledge when it comes to these kind of events. It seems to me that the liquor store person ended the situation in a favorable manner. He didn't have to fire his weapon. The threat for the moment was resolved. In many cases there is a very fine line that separates the good guy from the bad guy. I don't pretend to know or understand all the implications, and maybe I will never completely work them out, but I will keep on trying.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I have no desire to kill a fellow human being, but my experience has been that a gun is (sometimes</u>) a deterrent if the other guy doesn't have one too. When a BG displays a handgun, you have to assume he will use it. At that moment, you have a fraction of a second to decide if you want to live or die. I choose life.
 

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Sounds like the clerk actually "got the drop" on the BG. Can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing if I was fast enough. Once his gun is out it's a shooting matter. If I beat him then I give a verbal warning, and if he flees - he lives. If he draws - he dies. Period.
In the story the wording "displayed" is used. I would tend to believe that is a nice way to say he pointed his gun at the BG, not waved it around the room like he was saying - lookee here - I got one too.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
quote:Originally posted by jimbo1096

In the story the wording "displayed" is used. I would tend to believe that is a nice way to say he pointed his gun at the BG, not waved it around the room like he was saying - lookee here - I got one too.
I would sure hope so! If not, he might as well have left it under the counter. Years ago I was moonlighting at a discount store as a security officer. I watched this guy and his girl friend putting cartons of cigarettes in a diaper bag. (At that time, they didn't have all the smokes locked up in a display case or behind a counter.) I waited until the pair went outside and identified myself as a police officer. The BG yelled, "I'll blow you're ******* head off!" and reached inside his coat. Somehow my 2.5" Model 19 jumped into my hand and I backed up a step with it pointed directly at his head. At this point, I was maybe 6 feet from him and the d/a trigger was halfway pulled and then I realized he wasn't pulling his hand out of the coat and his eyes were big as saucers. I can't tell you what made me hesitate for that split second because up to that point everything I did was pure training and instinct. He yelled, "I ain't go no gun!" I told him to show me his hand real slow. He brought it out with no gun. I put him on the wall and frisked him and he had no weapons. It never ceases to amaze how dumb people can be! I found out later that this guy was recently released from Lansing Penitentiary on an armed robbery and attempted murder charge. If I had known the guy and his criminal history, I'm not sure I would have hesitated. It turned out for the best, but you always wonder what would have happened. The store manager was my witness, but the BG's girl friend was also a witness...who knows? Anyway, the guy's parole was revoked and back to the pen he went.
 

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At the point he threatened to shoot you and pretended to have a gun, it was no longer shoplifting, it was armed robbery...and you would have been justified---IF all the facts came out honestly...IF...
Peace, as long as they don't know you HAVE a gun, you have the choice to shoot or not-the second you let them know you have a gun, you have to have your mind made up to shoot or they will...I asked a pawn shop employee who was waggin' a Beretta in his belt if a woman came through that door with a gun in her hand to rob him, could he drop her....he said he didn't know....that was a hard one....I told him till he decided-put that gun under the counter and don't wear it...if a BG came in and he had it on-the shoot was on...if it was under the counter, there was a possibility the BG would only rob him...and if he decided-he could make a grab for it...the time for decision is before they know you have one...or you're playing catch-up and that's not a winning game....
Jimbo-BINGO!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #17
So true sheepdog! Much better to have the element of surprise on your side. Open carry in a business like that could very well end up causing you to be shot as soon as the BG spotted it. You can't watch every customer all the time.

In my case, I think the BG thought I was some poor unarmed security guard that he could scare into submission. (Surprise, Surprise!)
 

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Just some facts which may shed some more light on this topic:

Fact:
Every year, people in the United States use a gun to defend themselves against criminals
an estimated 2,500,000 times – more than 6,500 people a day, or once every 13 seconds. Of
these instances, 15.6% of the people using a firearm defensively stated that they "almost
certainly" saved their lives by doing so.
Firearms are used 60 times more often to protect lives than to take lives.

Fact: In 83.5% (2,087,500) of these successful gun defenses, the attacker either threatened or
used force first, proving that guns are very well suited for self-defense.

Fact: Of the 2,500,000 times citizens use guns to defend themselves, 92% merely brandish their
gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers.

Fact: Less than 8% of the time does a citizen wound his or her attacker, and in less than one in a
thousand instances is the attacker killed.

Fact:
For every accidental death, suicide or homicide with a firearm, 10 lives are saved through
defensive use.

Fact: When using guns in self-defense:
• 83% of robbery victims were not injured
• 88% of assault victims were not hurt
• 76% of all self-defense use of guns never involve firing a single shot

From GunFacts Version 4.2 http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/4.2/GunFacts4-2-Print.pdf
 

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Assuming that this report is true, and lots of "facts" aren't...I'll offer some comments based on on-the-street experiences and horse sense-and in my case, we know which end of the horse, but here goes anyways...(1. Only a fool fires a warning shot...you're playing with fire and showing indecision and irresponsiblity that will hang you civilly and maybe criminally-and make the LEOs furious...and you may desperately need the round you wasted...(2. You should never shoot to wound...only to stop...nuff said...(3.any producing of a handgun not as a response to deadly force can get you charged with a felony, and (4. any producing of a gun and not shooting to stop the person who caused you to feel the need to produce it may get you killed...real bad guys aren't scared of the hole in the barrel and many don't have anything to lose...they read a warning threat as weakness and WILL take it from you and kill you with it...most ex-cons have far more hand-to-hand experience than most cops...let alone most citizens.
I stand by the belief that noone needs to know a CCW holder has a gun until it becomes necessary to use it...and once he reveals he's got it...he'd better stop the threat...no time to negotiate if they're serious...your weapon is not a symbol of power, it is the ace in the hole that may let you go home to your family...
 

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Sheepdog,
I really appreciated your comments, there is a lot of food for thought there. Thanks.
 
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