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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I now have 3 SWFA SS (Super Sniper) scopes, a 10X42 Mil Dot, a 12 X42 Mil Quad, and soon to arrive a 16X42 Mil Quad. These are not the HD models.

I would rate these scopes as an outstanding value. Mechanically they are right up there with scopes from Leupold that cost over two times more. Optically they approach but do not quite equal the higher cost Leupolds like the FXIII, FX3, and M4 of which I have one each. This is just my opinion. My Leupolds cost from about 50% to 250% more and that was for used Leupolds.

The SS parallax adjustment is located just in front of the ocular housing or at the end of the scope. It is very quickly used and will focus down to 10 yards or so enabling vivid views of small varmint targets at close ranges. Parallax can be completely removed. The reticle adjust is inside the ocular housing and the reticle can be finely focused.

Lifting off the adjustment knobs on the SS scopes you can see heavy duty brass parts, the lens' have some type of green coating similar in color to the Leupolds, the exterior finish appears to be some type of matte black paint that is probably baked on, it is not as scratch resistant as the Leupold finishes.

The SS reticle is of the etched glass type. The mil quad reticle divided into .5 mil increments is one of the best that I have ever used; combined with the .1 mil adjustments it is easy to dial in on distant targets.

Service for these scopes is excellent. On my 10X42 Mil Dot I experienced lots of visible debris on the etched reticle. I had a new scope within 20 days.

My views are if you want a good value in a high power scope consider one of these. They are big and bulky and don't look as nice as my Leupold 12X40 FX's but then again they cost about $150 less and the reticles are better for long range shooting. I do most of my looking using high quality binocs or spotting scope but can handle less than absolutely perfect optics for the scope sight. I don't spend hours peering through my rifle sight like my binocs or spotter and I rather spend my money on binocs or spotter.
 

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I have a SWFA SS 10x42HD on my Remington 5R .308 and I love it. They are absolutely a value buy. Read this review of expensive scopes and see what the results of their blind comparison of the March Tactical 2.5-25×42, the IOR Valdada 3-18×42, the Premier Heritage 3-15×50, the Vortex Razor HD 5-20×50, the SWFA S.S. HD 10×42, and the IOR Valdada 6-24×56.

After all was said and done, I told them how much all these scopes cost. With that information available, the 10×42 S.S. HD comfortably moved to the front of the line if spending your own money was involved.
High End Tactical Scopes: East vs West » OpticsThoughts
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
Both Mil Dot & Mil Quad can be used for range estimation.

At 100 yards one milliradian or distance between mil dots spans 3.6 inches and there are 3600 inches in 100 yards; but the thing with .25 MOA adjustment scopes the adjustments are just that .25 MOA or real close to .25 inches at 100 yards. At 500 yards one milliradian spans 18 inches, at 1000 yards one milliradian spans 36 inches. Shooting at a 18 inch tall standing rock chuck at 500 yards would mean the little beast would span one milliradian. Two 9 inch gophers lying nose to nose would span one milliradian at 500 yards. At 250 yards or (2.5 * 3.6 = 9) one gopher standing on top of its burrow would span one milliradian. At that point it would be required to make elevation changes for the bullet being used to make a hit but the range could be closely estimated.

The mil quad scopes are somewhat different. The adjustments are usually marked off in .1 milliradian. The reticle has .5 milliradian has hash marks on it. This means that at 100 yards one milliradian or 10 .1 milliradian clicks will span 3.6 inches at 100 yards or .36 inches per .1 millliradian click. Going metric one milliradian will span 10 cm at 100 meters being that there are 10,000 centimeters per 100 meters (100*100=10,000) or 1 cm per .1 milliradian click at 100 meters.

What you see is what you get with a mil quad scope. Shooting at the same 18 inch high rock chuck at 500 yards will mean fitting the little beast into one milliradian or (2) .5 milliradian hash marks. At that point the shot can be taken using the correct one or .5 milliradian hash mark as an aiming point depending on the trajectory. Using mil value tables either hash marks or adjustments can be used. The adjustments will correspond with marks on the reticle. If shots are consistently low and can be spotted with the reticle a corresponding elevation correction can be made without going through the mil dot spans and .25 MOA calculations. If they hit 1.5 milliradians low either use the 1.5 milliradian hash mark or come up 1.5 milliradians or 15 clicks.

Generally most of my misses are due to wind so I like to make my shots on prone varmints and put the vertical cross hair on the up wind end.
 

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Thank you for the info. We must be talking about two different kinds of mill dot
(mill radiant ) scopes. I thought you had a military type millradiant aiming system, the kind with round dots up, down, and left right horizontally (Army round-Oval for marine ).
I was trained with one and have only used it to find the distance to target.
That is it's intended use, The rifle was always zeroed for 100 yards, the distance to target is calculated with the scope, and the turrets are used to enable the shooter to always hold dead on the target. I guess you don't have the same mill dot system, What if you hit low and the rock chuck takes a dive into his hole and sleeps for the rest of the day ? so what do you do to find your distance to target so your first shot is a kill shot? range finder ? and then hold over with the scope. Here is what I mean so I don't get confused. We had little test like this.
Mr. Rock chuck is way off in the distance some place between 300 and 500 yards, and sitting about 25 feet in front of an old farm house, the front of the
farm house was facing you and you could see the big door in the front and one window on the second level. There is an old car to the left of the farm house sitting side ways to you and even with it horizontally. You flip open your bi-pod and get prone to make the shot only to find that the little furry guy has gone into his hole. You know he will come out in a few minutes and you want to be ready for him, he may only show himself for a quick 2 or 3 seconds and I may have to take a quick shot.
How far away is the rock chuck ? and how will the cross hairs be placed on him ?
Took me a while to get the hang of it but it always worked .
If you have a different kind of mill dot I would like to learn it.
 

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The nice feature of the newer SWFA mil-quad reticle is that the graduations and adjustments on the turrets match the mil reticle. This allows you to make shot adjustments by simply dialing the shot error seen through scope and measured by the reticle and then turning the turrets appropriately to make rapid follow-up shot corrections. This is an aid for some people, but others learned on mil/moa scopes and prefer to do the math calculations because that is the way that they learned and what they are comfortable doing. There is plenty about mil/mil and mil/moa scopes on a forum like The Sniper's Hide.
 

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Thank you WIN 308,

I guess they invented a new way to use a mill dot scope. I have used three , one with a reticule graduated in .1 mills, one with .5 mills , and one with just the dots, mill turrets and moa turrets. I have never seen anyone use them the way you describe and that is what through me.
All the mill scopes I have used are used to acquire distance to target only, that has been it's only purpose. Missing and making adjustments was not a good option, it just meant you made a mistake in calculation. Second shots were not always viable.
As in the ground hog that went for cover in my little story above in the other post.
I don't want to make it seem that you are using it wrong, or don't understand how to use a mill dot. My goodness the world is full of things I don't know or understand, that's why I ask questions.
The mill dot scope be it mill turrets or MOA turrets is depended on the shooter knowing the size of his/her target. That is a key factor in calculating the distance to the target.
Three hints were given in my little story, the old farm house, the windows, and the car parked next to it. I also included the fact that the target had taken flight after the first miss, and I wanted to be ready for him if he presented again and only for a brief second.
( I hope this is a fun exercise )

The nice feature of the newer SWFA mil-quad reticle is that the graduations and adjustments on the turrets match the mil reticle.
This is nothing new, my goodness not even close to being new.
Mill to mill is the preferred method and scopes with this make up have been available for years. MOA turrets work OK also.
You were kind enough to tell me how you use the scope, so please allow me to explain how I and every other person I have known uses one and how it is taught.
One mill at 100 yards measures 3.6" the distance between the dots from the center of one dot to the center of another dot is 3.6" everything in between the dots is a part of that 3.6" A half mill at 100 yards would measure half of 3.6 or 1.8" that is at 100 yards and only with the scope at 10 power, don't work any other way. Well yes you can use it at 20 power and divide by 2 or use it at 5 power and double it. but I will stay with the standard 10 power for my interpretation of how to use the scope.
Before I fired a shot I would pick my ammunition and stay with the one choice.
Hopefully the most accurate for my rifle. The turrets are zeroed out, and the rifle is sighted in for dead on accuracy at 100 yards, shots are then taken at 150, 200, 250, 300, 350, and so on up to my anticipated Max range. turret adjustments are noted and recorded for each different range and the turret is always returned to zero so as to be ready for a different target at a different distance. In the example, if I needed 2 clicks up for a dead on hold at 150 then that is recorded. As are all the other turret adjustments for the different ranges. Yes it's slow and takes work and most people don't have that kind of distance to shoot at.
So now I know how to adjust my scope turrets for a dead on hold out to my desired max distance. Lets say it's 500 yard to keep it simple.
The next thing I need to know is the size of my target, OR, the size of something close to my target. Enter the car next to the farm house, the window in the farm house and the farm house door, in my other story. I already no how to adjust my scope for the different distance, but what is the distance ? how far away is the target ?
You need to the know the size of objects in the shooting environment your in.
In the case of my little story I know that the average hub cap on a vehicle is 13" the window is 40" high and the front door on the house is 72"
the little furry guy is probly 18" But he disappeared from sight when my shot missed and scared him back in his hole.
So I take aim on the window and i find that is I put the center of the cross hair which
represents the center of one dot on the bottom of the window the top of the window rest in the middle of the third dot. ( three mills )
This is one of the calculations for the distance in yards.
size of the target X 27.8 Divided by the # of mills or the parts of a mill.
I can't see the ground hog anymore so I use the height of the window as the size of the target 40"
40 X 27.8 = 1112 Divided by the # mills the window took up in the scope (3) = 370.66
Now I know that when Mr. Gopher pops up again he will be 370 yards away from me.
I check my turret adjustments and see for a 350 yard shot I need to induce 11 clicks of up elevation. I dial them in take my shot when it presents itself and then re-zero the turret for the next shot. MOA turrets or Mill turrets, no difference, just a different way to adjust for the shot. 1/10 mill turrets being the best for me.
I could have used the hub cap or the door as long as I know the size, or even the 18"
for the gopher. but you need to know how many mills they take up in the scope at the distance you are at in order to find the distance.
Mill radiant turrets are not new and like I said i was not privy to using a mill scope any differently. Fact is they were used with mill graduations for long distance cannon fire,
for distance to target.
They are slow to use and not the greatest for quick target acquisition.
Interesting, accurate, and a fun experience but now we have range finders,
A nice alternative is sighting in for point blank range
I take my rifle, lets say 243 for coyote, I establish the kill zone to be 6"
I fire my rifle at different distances and see I can keep it in a 6" circle out to 250 yards,
That's my point blank range, cross hair in the middle of the kill zone and I will get a good hit out to 250 yards. If it were a ground squirrel the kill zone would be smaller and the point blank range would be less.
Well anyway I thank you for your explanation and hope you got something from mine.
Like I said I didn't know the mill dot scope had been re invented I found that interesting.
Could you point me to some info on how to use the mill dot the way you described.

BG
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
The big difference is that the mil quad scopes have reticles in 1 and .5 milliradian graduations and the adjustment knobs match having .1 milliradian clicks.

I also use a range finder and tables made from the Sierra Infinity ballistic program showing sight corrections in mils for the particular load that I am using.

It is true, upon missing, a rock chuck will dive for cover and in an instant be protected by eight tons of rock. Even then getting an idea of the impact will often make the second shot a hit provided that you are patient enough.

Some shooters being accustomed to 1/4 or 1/8 moa clicks find .1 milliradian clicks (.36 inches at 100 yards or 1 cm at 100 meters) to coarse for their shooting. My feeling is mil quad scopes have their calling for field type shooting.

Checking out my mil quad reticles I discovered that the end of each cross hair was divided into .25 milliradians.
 

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Yes, ranging is another and perhaps the original use of the graduated military reticle which is based on estimating the size of an object and using the object's measured graduations to calculate a range. Yes, .1 mil turrets move your point of aim about .36" per click at 100 yards, and 1/4 MOA turrets move your point of aim about .25" per click at 100 yards, so moa's are a slightly finer adjustment. Yes, mil/moa and mil/mil reticles are not new, but for SWFA's SS scope line the mil/mil version is only a couple of years old.
If you can see the POI on a shot then using the same standard, be it mil/mil or moa/moa, makes follow-up shot corrections a snap because you just dial in the error with no calculations.
I use the Mil Dot Master to help with range calculations and ballistic tables to estimate drop of specific cartridges that I shoot. Range finders are convenient but expensive. It is best to understand the old way of doing it before you depend on an electronic device for your ranging. Murphy's Law says your electronics will fail just when you need them the most.
 

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Ease up friend, you don't have to defend yourself to me, Like I said , have fun. if you want to re-invent the wheel and it gives you a better ride all is well, no need to keep defending it. If it works for you that's all that matters.
It's all about having fun--right ?
 

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BG- Not defending myself, just responding to your extra long posting.
Point you in this direction: http://www.mil-dot.com/media/1027/the_derivation_of_the_range_estimation_equations.pdf
Both methods are accepted means for ranging, you are obviously a mil/moa fan, so yes go have fun with your math. The concensus on The Sniper's Forum is that it makes most sense to use a scope with the same units on the reticle and the turrets. http://forum.snipershide.com/snipers-hide-fieldcraft/156595-mil-vs-moa.html
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I sure like my .1 milliradian adjustments and the matching .5 and 1 milliradian reticle. Using it is fast and easy - what you see is what you get.

I have never had my rangefinder that uses batteries and being an electronic device fail but it is a worthy drill to match range finder readings with estimates obtained using milliradian reticles.

I remember one shoot at rockchucks among abandoned and junked farm implements, old trucks, and old cars. I never did shoot one standing on top of a rusty tractor but remember using the known sizes of objects as ranging objects. I use a 100 yard zero.

Shooting prairie dogs involves much more shooting at various ranges and the matching reticle (.5 & 1 milliradian) and .1 milliradian adjustments greatly simplifies things.

I think I will like my new SS 16X42 mil quad scope more than the other SS scopes I have. It has excellent optics considering its price and magnification power.

Comparing my old steel tube Weaver T10 and T16 scopes, the T10 was more user friendly and appeared to have better resolution. The new SS scopes are a definite improvement over the older T10 & T16 that are over 30 years old. I still have both of them and use the T16 on my .30-06 to test loads.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
My cousin's name was Reginald (AKA WhiteyR) and we used to beat up on each other during our childhood years.

Yes, the 12X42 can spot bullet holes at 200 yards and somewhat beyond. It has almost the same resolution as my 4.5-14X40 Leupold M4. the 12X42 can also be focused down to 30 feet or so.

It would be a good scope for a .22RF provided you don't mind a somewhat top heavy rifle - this is not a small light scope.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
A day at the range with the SWFA SS 16X42 Mil Quad

Today I shot the 16X42 for the first time. I mounted it on a 6mm AI, 1-8 twist, 26 inch barrel. The rifle is a M77 MKII long action with a 26" #4 contour custom barrel.

Conditions were about 35 deg. f, dry, sun, wind from right to left @ approx. 7 mph.

My load was reformed and fire formed .257 Roberts brass, turned necks, 50.5 gr. H1000, 105 gr. Hornady Amax bullets seated out there close to rifling, and CCI #34 primers.

I sighted it in at 100 yards. Then when satisfied with my zero, I removed each knob and replaced it at "0". Back off each Allen head screw then tighten.

My target then was a 14 inch disc at 385 meters or 39.375 inches per meter/36 inches per yard X 385 meters = 421 yards plus. Most of my other rifles usually take 1.5 to 2 mils elevation to hit at 421 yards using a 100 yard zero. Using the hash marks on the reticle I put the 3rd one down or the one at 1.5 mils at the center of the target.

Shots 1,2,3 were close to the center of the target. I then came up 15 .1 mil clicks or 1.5 mil and repeated the results of the first 3 shots only using the center of the reticle as an aiming point. What you see is what you get and I did not have to do any MOA calculations using .25 or .125 (1/8) moa clicks.

I compared the resolution with a 12X40 FXIII and 4-14X40 VXIII and the SS16X42 almost equaled the other scopes, but cost $280 less.

When zeroing in the scope at 100 yards the .360 or .1 mil click adjustments would not be what some bench rest competitor would like as compared to .125 or 1/8 MOA clicks.

I ran the Sierra Infinity ballistics program using a max range of 425 yards, 25 yard increments, the 105 Amax bullet @ 3200 fps, and came up with 1.5 mil bullet path @ 425 yards using a 100 yard zero. I used Hornady's ballistic coefficient (what ever that was). I made the program duplicate closely what happened at the range. Checking out actual velocities and adjusting the B.C. might happen.
 
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