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First let me say that this is not intended to endorse any type of ammunition or sway anyones thoughts on the subject, I am certainly no expert and don't pretended have any answerers. This is also not intended to condemn anyone on this list or other party. The intent is to provide some resources for each person to make their own conclusions.

I often see statements such as this particular round has the best street performance or has a certain documented street performance. I have personally done this myself. Most of this information is based on books and statements by several different individuals. After doing a considerable amount of research on the subject I personally have a lot of doubt if any of this information is credible. It appears at least to me that a lot of this data was hand picked, fabricated or simply does not actually exist. It also appears that a large amount of data that did not support the individuals conclusions was simply ignored. One of the biggest problems I found with the data used is only incidents involving a single shot were used and incidents where the individual had to be shot multiple times was not considered and did not count as one shot failures.

There are several on line references for both points of view but I included a couple here that have a lot of what I think is credible information, form your own opinion.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm
http://www.firearmstactical.com/iwba.htm
http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm
 

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Good data...for when it was written...July 1989 time frame on the first FBI files and 94-96 on the second reference...fairly old material here. There has been quite a bit of new ballistic stats on new and improved ammunition, Corbon and Buffalo Bore being examples, that one should consider missing in the old FBI files. Performance just keeps improving yearly...and that is a good reason why I stay tuned in with these forums. I learn daily.
 

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One man's trash is another man's treasure...it's such an important decision it takes all the input it can get..."experts" who do these studies are just men and often see what they're looking for....get as much input as you can and make a decision...which will change as likely as not...new things happenin'...DPX and other copper bullets, for instance...soon it'll be nerf bullets, if the squishies have their way....thanks for the sources....
 

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In the overall scheme of things, pistol bullets are poor goblin stoppers. Many myths and legends about pistol bullet performance still exist, despite (or maybe because of) our modern ability to communicate.

I'm not sure who originated the 24 rules of gun fighting, many atribute it to Clint Smith at Thunder Ranch. There are several versions.

Rule 6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.

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Rule 24. Do not attend a gun fight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with anything smaller than "4".

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Here are the facts:

"Armor piercing" ammunition is only legally available to law enforcement agencies and to the armed forces.

In the mid 1960's, Dr. Paul Kopsch (an Ohio coroner), Daniel Turcos (a police sergeant) and Donald Ward (Dr. Kopsch's special investigator) began experimenting with special purpose handgun ammunition. Their objective was to develop a law enforcement round capable of improved penetration against hard targets like windshield glass and automobile doors. Conventional bullets, made primarily from lead, are often ineffective against hard targets especially when fired at handgun velocities. In the 1970's, Kopsch, Turcos and Ward produced their "KTW" handgun ammunition using steel cored bullets capable of great penetration. Following further experimentation, in 1981 they began producing bullets constructed primarily of brass. The hard brass bullets caused exceptional wear on handgun barrels, a problem combated by coating the bullets with Teflon. The Teflon coating did nothing to improve penetration, it simply reduced damage to the gun barrel.

Despite the facts that "KTW" ammunition had never been available to the general public and that no police officer has ever been killed by a handgun bullet penetrating their body armor, the media incorrectly reported that the Teflon coated bullets were designed to defeat the body armor that law enforcement officers were beginning to use. The myth of "Cop-killer" bullets was born.

- When properly wearing the appropriate body armor, not one law enforcement officer has ever been killed by a handgun bullet penetrating their vest. The National Institute of Justice (NIJ) certifies three levels of body armor. The most commonly worn, Level IIA, offers realistic protection against all .22, .25, .32, .380, and .38, caliber handgun ammunition, against most 9mm, .357 Magnum, .40 S&W, .45 ACP and .44 Magnum handgun ammunition and against 000 buck shotgun pellets. Level II and Level IIIA armor protects from even greater threats including 12 gauge shotgun slugs and the "hottest" .44 Magnum rounds...
 

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as long as the BG's aren't wearing body armor I think I'll be ok well I hope so.
 

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Head shots, gentlemen, it's not about being bloodthirsty, it's about how often a common thug burglar is arrested wearing body armor-more and more prevalent-head shots are very important...to the range, to the range........
 

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quote:Originally posted by sheepdog

Head shots, gentlemen, it's not about being bloodthirsty, it's about how often a common thug burglar is arrested wearing body armor-more and more prevalent-head shots are very important...to the range, to the range........
Police train to shoot what is known as "Mozambique." Two to the torso, a third shot to the head. Works well as long as the bad guy holds still enough for you to hit his head. Easier said than done.
 

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Old fat ex-cops weren't even taught double-tap ('71) but we picked it up on our own...stop the thinker, stop the stinker!!!
 

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Even head shots are not always reliable. :(

If I know I'm going to be in a gunfight I want a longarm and a buddy or three. I carry a six shooter off duty and train: two to the chest, one to the head, two more to the chest and one to the pelvis.

Then I have to go to my BUG. For multiple targets, more than one, I shoot one shot at each target, center mass or best available target I get. Luckily I haven't had to test this "theory".

I try to carry a reliable handgun cartridge that I'm confident with. For me that's either a 45 ACP Revolver or a 357 Magnum Revolver. My BUG has been a 38 SPL for years. I may get an SP101 for use as a BUG, but it will be a while before I do.

I plan for the worst, and have a plan to deal with it. That way, if the worst happens I'm prepared. If the worst doesn't happen, I'm no worse off than before.

Biker
 

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Plan is the key word-having a plan takes the "Oh sh.. what do I do" factor out...you just do what you've planned and trained to do...a trained response is the best way to deal with sudden shock and most don't take the time and trouble to program/train/plan/prepare...they strap on a gun and hope for the best...your plan sounds like one that'll getcha back to the house!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #12
+1 Sheepdog
A perfect example (I don't remember all the details) one of the larger police departments many years ago required the officers to stop at each stage of the training course and pick up their empties, they wanted a clean range. During a gun battle one office that was mortally wounded was found to be holding several empties in his off hand. In the heat of the moment he did exactly what he trained to do now mater how inappropriate it was.
 

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that is a shame that that happened that poor guy was acting out what he had been trained to do.
 
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