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The other day, I received my July copy of USCCA’s Concealed Carry magazine. One of the topics was Close Call: Is The 21-Foot Rule Still Cutting-edge?

It reminded me of a show I recently binge-watched, Justified on amazon prime. One of the funniest characters was Danny. From Wikia:

“All season, Danny has been talking about “the 21-foot rule,” which argues that a good knife-fighter should be able to best a man with a gun within 21 feet by closing the distance really quickly.”

Twice in the same season, the show writers teased the viewers but never gave us the satisfaction of finding out if Danny was correct. The first was when Danny brought up the topic with Jean Baptiste. The second was when Danny had his chance to prove it to Raylan. Both times, Danny himself got in the way and he was nowhere near 21 feet.

IMO it was smart on the writers’ part not to take a stand and let the pros and facts in the real world settle the matter.

I like the last two sentences of the magazine article:

“If Tueller taught us anything, it’s that it’s not actually a gunfight until you have your gun in hand.
Until then, you’ve brought a gun to a stabbing.”

Be aware of your surroundings and stay safe. ;)
 

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Justified .. top 5 shows of all time.
 

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Aside from fictional TV shows and martial arts teachings as plot devices in dramas, the real purpose of the 21 foot rule is to remind people that complacency kills.
Pay attention to your surroundings.
 

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My preferred method of carry is strong side front pocket in a pocket holster. If you see someone that sets off your radar then you can casually put your hand in your pocket and have gun in hand ready to go. IMHO that is a lot different (quicker) than having to draw from another location. The obvious disadvantage to pocket carry is when seated.
 

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(Spoiler) Man, I loved that show. Wish it had never ended. I remember the confrontation with Raylan. When Danny asked, Raylan said Nope, he'd never heard of the 21 foot rule. (Hard to believe, heh).

So Danny charged him with a knife, stepped in a hole, and fell down, LOL.
 

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JUSTIFIED....That was one hell of a good show. I was sad to see it end.

As for the Tueller drill, other than being shown examples of a man covering the distance of 21 feet before another man can draw and fire, I'm not sure what else can be taken from it.

I personally have NOT seen/read or heard anything that states that it is Justifiable to shoot a knife wielding assailant, because he or she is w/in 21 feet.

Nor have I seen/read or heard anything that states it is NOT Justifiable to shoot a knife wielding assailant, because he or she is farther than 21 feet away.

I can only assume each case would have to be judged on their own set of circumstances.
 

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JUSTIFIED....That was one hell of a good show. I was sad to see it end.

As for the Tueller drill, other than being shown examples of a man covering the distance of 21 feet before another man can draw and fire, I'm not sure what else can be taken from it.

I personally have NOT seen/read or heard anything that states that it is Justifiable to shoot a knife wielding assailant, because he or she is w/in 21 feet.

Nor have I seen/read or heard anything that states it is NOT Justifiable to shoot a knife wielding assailant, because he or she is farther than 21 feet away.

I can only assume each case would have to be judged on there own set of circumstances.

And then hope that the judge you get actually interprets the law as it is written and not what his possible liberal bent is on the written law. Some judges, I believe, think a person is not in danger for their life until just before the final blow just before death and then and only then are you Justified in deadly force to protect yourself. Unless of course their own body guard says differently when the judge is being threatened.
 

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The standard is if you feel your life is in danger. If somebody pulls a knife and starts toward you the point is they can close the distance before you can draw and shoot. Part of the problem we face is Hollywood shows the hero shooting the knife out of someones hand so many in the sheepie crowd think if you put one centermass then you are a murderer. You will need a good lawyer to keep those people off the jury.
 

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The article also pointed out that just because you might get your gun drawn, and a shot off, the knife wielding attacker is still a threat to your life. Be aware of your surroundings, and, knowing how to “fight” without or without a weapon could save your life.
 

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This all assumes the knife wielding attacker is skilled in offensive knife combat and is physically adept enough to cover 21 feet quickly. I suspect the number of trained knife wielding assailants is a pretty small number and in all reality it's probably just a knucklehead that couldn't get his hands on a gun. Doesn't change the fact that things will happen quickly but I wouldn't get too worked up over a tactical 'what if' based on the absolute worst case scenario. I'm not saying it couldn't happen but I am saying it's pretty unlikely. Pay attention to your surroundings and don't go places that necessitate being armed.
 

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We practiced that years back using rubber guns and knives . Guess what ( and this is a service pistol in regular gear belt). Every damned time you’ll hit him someplace but he is going to get a piece of you. You best start early .
One of the better tricks we practiced and do to this day is called stitch shooting. It’s a tad dangerous so be careful.
We did it with a range instructor standing right behind where he could grab if we fell over backwards. One handed no time for two hand grip just jerk it out enough to clear and as it starts coming out you rock it forward shooting. You’re blasting fast as you can pull the trigger. Don’t aim don’t stop elevating at center mass keep going. There’s usually 5 fired with at least 3 hits starting at the knees then crotch , stomach chest and if lucky face .
It’s designed for that behind the curve sudden attack. You don’t want to bring it up as if he’s good he can block even take it away from you. What it does ( hopefully) is put enough power on your assailant that he gets blown back allowing you to back off yourself out of lunging range. We did it at around 5’and the muzzle blast really shreds the target.
Like I said this can get dangerous FOR YOU so if you practice this method be oh so damned careful what you do with your non shooting hand! We do most of our shooting double grip right, it’s nearly automatic. If you goof you can end up with it out in front as you’re shooting, it happens! To avoid problems most of us did the one hand drills with the non shooting hand stuck in a back pocket. Yes you look dumb but at least you won’t have to go to the ER and tell everyone how you shot yourself in the hand.
Of course don’t go full throttle with finger on trigger like the real thing. Remember, all this shooting is going on right next to your midsection so act accordingly. Practice once in a while and keep it in your bag of tricks for that awful day you hope won’t ever come.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

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This all assumes the knife wielding attacker is skilled in offensive knife combat and is physically adept enough to cover 21 feet quickly. I suspect the number of trained knife wielding assailants is a pretty small number and in all reality it's probably just a knucklehead that couldn't get his hands on a gun. Doesn't change the fact that things will happen quickly but I wouldn't get too worked up over a tactical 'what if' based on the absolute worst case scenario. I'm not saying it couldn't happen but I am saying it's pretty unlikely. Pay attention to your surroundings and don't go places that necessitate being armed.


Unfortunately anyone not lugging around 35+ extra lbs. actually can “ get there”. From what I saw every officer we had made it way past half way before e other even got his out myself included. Granted we all had some sort of retention holster as mandated. One of our officers told of a former partner being . attacked in the early 80 s in some project. Similar situation, shot the perp 5 times IIRC with a 38 . The hood rat waded right through the fire and stuck him and they both died. You truly never know.
Now that I think of it stepping backwards was why the range officer was standing behind us for. They came back with us as we took a big step backwards while firing. Not necessary if you’re alone but with 5 shooting on a line I can see the safety concern.
Anything to create some distance I guess. After all shooting on the move is good practice most of us are sorely lacking.
I do remember that having your hand already on the grip greatly sped things along. More or less everyone was engaging the simulated aggressor before he got even got half way. With that in mind the hand in the pocket is a great idea. Besides it serves an even more important role. That’s making that group of low life’s wonder what is in there enough to leave you be.
 

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Pay attention to your surroundings and don't go places that necessitate being armed.
Bonk, I'm with you on "Paying attention to your surroundings", but you lost me at "don't go places that necessitate being armed".

This is a CCW thread. The object of having a CCW is to be armed and able to defend ones life and family, if need be. I will go out on a limb and say that damn near anyplace one goes could necessitate being armed.
 

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Bonk, I'm with you on "Paying attention to your surroundings", but you lost me at "don't go places that necessitate being armed".

This is a CCW thread. The object of having a CCW is to be armed and able to defend ones life and family, if need be. I will go out on a limb and say that damn near anyplace one goes could necessitate being armed.
He didn't say don't go armed he say avoid places you need to be armed. Big difference.
 

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He didn't say don't go armed he say avoid places you need to be armed. Big difference.
Absolutely. Just because you're armed doesn't mean it's a good idea to go for a stroll thru the 'hood at oh-dark-hundred with hundred-dollar bills sticking out of your pockets.

:rolleyes:
 

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Absolutely. Just because you're armed doesn't mean it's a good idea to go for a stroll thru the 'hood at oh-dark-hundred with hundred-dollar bills sticking out of your pockets.

:rolleyes:

I am not advocating going into bad or high crime areas.
This goes hand in hand with paying attention to your surroundings, having situational awareness and plain old common sense.

I am simply stating that many people on this forum take CC very seriously. They CC everyday, everywhere. With very few exceptions, they don't leave their home w/out a CCW. They have all ready made the decision that everywhere they go, necessitates being armed.

So for Bonk to say "Don't go places that necessitates being armed" to a group of people (remember we are on a CCW forum) whom many of them feel, "everyplace we go, necessitates being armed" struck me as funny. That's all.

If that was Bonks way of saying "Don't go to potentially bad/dangerous places" or "avoid conflicts and trouble spots" or "don't go looking for trouble" then I agree 100%.
As I re-read his post, I am sure that was his point.

I really hope this clears the air, as I don't think I can type the word "necessitates" one more time.:D
 

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Just because it's a CCW thread doesn't preclude offering observations that might put a somewhat different perspective on the matter.

If folks aren't able to recognize "places that necessitate being armed" they probably shouldn't be doing CC in the first place because they probably aren't aware of the importance of situational awareness. And just because folks are reading this "CCW thread" doesn't mean they already CCW and are fully informed on the subject. As a matter of fact, just because someone does CC doesn't mean they're fully informed, either.

Your point is well made. I'm just saying that not everyone is as tuned in to the matter as you are and we need to point out certain considerations that apply.

:)
 

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Just because it's a CCW thread doesn't preclude offering observations that might put a somewhat different perspective on the matter.

If folks aren't able to recognize "places that necessitate being armed" they probably shouldn't be doing CC in the first place because they probably aren't aware of the importance of situational awareness. And just because folks are reading this "CCW thread" doesn't mean they already CCW and are fully informed on the subject. As a matter of fact, just because someone does CC doesn't mean they're fully informed, either.

Your point is well made. I'm just saying that not everyone is as tuned in to the matter as you are and we need to point out certain considerations that apply.

:)
Ale-8(1) we are both on the same page here, believe me.

Maybe you or I should open a thread on situational awareness and see where that goes?

I am certainly no authority on the subject, and I would welcome anybody's perspective or views on the matter.

I am sure that there are many LEO's and retired LEO's on this forum that could offer a wealth of info, if they were inclined to do so.

Or maybe the subject has been covered before, and all that is needed is a search?
 

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I'm certainly no authority on this either. I just thought the point needed a little further thought.

Actually, this thread is about situational awareness, and between us we managed to kinda open up the discussion. I'm satisfied that it can continue to discuss the matter of situational awareness without another thread, but whatever suits everyone works for me. I've tossed in my two cents' worth and cannot really add much with the possible exception of pointing out that the closer a bad guy is when you discover his threat the less chance you have to repel said threat. The so-called Tueller drill sets you up with a static situation with a relatively good distance involved and you being aware of the intended attack, probably with your hand poised over your holstered weapon and already in your chosen "combat stance". You'd never have those advantages in a real-world situation, so it's really just another "gun game". 'Nuff said, I'm outta here.

:)
 
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