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I keep stepping up a load I am working to be best preformed out of sp101 spurless snub. I am up to 7.8 of aa#2 and have ten loaded also of 7.9 and 8.0. At this point still very soft shooting and accurate but have a feeling that 8.0 and up still under published data but if anyone else has had the same load and how it shot out of a snubnose preferably a sp101. The bullet is a xtp 125 gr so need what velocities for proper expansion? Also using cci spp 500. I look on line but not seeing much with this load but believe I can get something like my 9mm load with a happy medium accuracy and felt recoil with this fast burning powder to maximize velocity. From my limited reloading experience of just a few years now but have read a couple manuals and allot of data on the rounds I reload but never seem to be in line with much of the same thinking as other reloaders I know because mostly I like shooting lighter fast burning projectiles. But still not sure if this is correct the correct thinking with a snubnose. cant wait till I can afford a crono when tax returns come but want to have more ammo ready when it comes out of box.
 

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Fast burning powders don't typically maximize velocity. FYI, The Accurate Arms load data is free. They show 6.8-8.0gr of AA#2 under a 125gr XTP. That max only pushes it to 1250 fps from a 6" barrel, according to them. Not really top-end velocity, in spite of the top-end pressure.

Just a general opinion, but using the bar of "it's still soft shooting" seems like the wrong metric when talking about the faster burning powders. The magnitude of the initial pressure spike won't have much to do with how hard or soft shooting it feels (unless the gun blows up, which probably won't feel soft).
 

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Just work up a load with the powders you have and enjoy it, but I wouldn't start handloading and start to carry that ammo for self defense because that can create legal issues for you in court if you ever actually had to shoot someone. You can do what you want, but most people like massad ayoob say you should only carry factory loaded ammo.

Here's the explanation if you are interested
THR - View Single Post - Are legal concerns over carrying handloads trivial?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks guys got something from both of you. I have some carry ammo now that's from a licensed reloading business locally. 158 sjhp magnums Nice rnds but out of the sp101 There recoil is different not worse just seem to hit hand differently than with the 125 gr xtp. I have aa#5 that's ok with the 125gr with a medium load from the aa site. Also have aa#9 but only rnds I loaded were farthest away from what I was looking for and figured if worst comes to worste I'll still find a good idpa load.

As regulars to SD ammo it's expensive just to get 50 rnds but to shoot them regularly is worste. Never thought that it matters if I load it or some machine loads it. I guess I am wrong. I do think my handloads are just a bit better when fully chronoed and have shot hundreds of rounds. My ammo normally is so much more accurate although might only be by a little I still feel more comfortable with it. I thought even law enforcement loaded for their long rifles?

Ran out of bullets a bit ago today but will have a couple more boxes Friday hopefully and can load up a starting load of a#9 and also have green dot that I think is a decent whatever powder.
 

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Just work up a load with the powders you have and enjoy it, but I wouldn't start handloading and start to carry that ammo for self defense because that can create legal issues for you in court if you ever actually had to shoot someone. You can do what you want, but most people like massad ayoob say you should only carry factory loaded ammo.

Here's the explanation if you are interested
THR - View Single Post - Are legal concerns over carrying handloads trivial?
My target loads are perfectly capable of killing. I can just see a prosecutor now, " Yer Honor this man loaded these low powered target loads with the express purpose of killing and maiming".

Safetyjoe, please post links to cases that handloading was used to convict someone, lets see how many there actually are compared to the total number of self defense cases. M Ayoob is not God, even though he thinks he is. :eek:
 

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My target loads are perfectly capable of killing. I can just see a prosecutor now, " Yer Honor this man loaded these low powered target loads with the express purpose of killing and maiming".

Safetyjoe, please post links to cases that handloading was used to convict someone, lets see how many there actually are compared to the total number of self defense cases. M Ayoob is not God, even though he thinks he is. :eek:
Is it really worth the risk? Most cases don't revolve around one factor and it's multiple factors that come into play. Having less to make you look bad is better. I bet there's more civil cases where people had handloads used against them, but most of those cases are not public so we'll never know.
 

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Is it really worth the risk? Most cases don't revolve around one factor and it's multiple factors that come into play. Having less to make you look bad is better. I bet there's more civil cases where people had handloads used against them, but most of those cases are not public so we'll never know.
Haven't been on for a while but I agree - why make it worse for you? I doubt anyone loads to go out and shoot someone - at least law abiding people. Buy manufactured ammo for carry and save yourself the grief.
 

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In a self defense scenario, whether you used hand loaded ammo or factory ammo will not be the issue at all. The only issue will be if you were justified to use deadly force or not.

As far as 125 gr. XTP .357 ammo, I worked up a load to max charge using Vitavori N110 for my SP101. Its the only load that that gun does well with, accuracy wise (one hole groups at 25 yards). It kept getting more accurate the more powder I put in it. N110 is nice too because it has less muzzle blast and flash than most other powders. I can't get my SP101 to shoot anything else accurately. It usually shoots 4"-6" groups at 25 yards. My GP100 is just the opposite, shooting great groups with just about anything I throw at it.
 

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In a self defense scenario, whether you used hand loaded ammo or factory ammo will not be the issue at all. The only issue will be if you were justified to use deadly force or not.

As far as 125 gr. XTP .357 ammo, I worked up a load to max charge using Vitavori N110 for my SP101. Its the only load that that gun does well with, accuracy wise (one hole groups at 25 yards). It kept getting more accurate the more powder I put in it. N110 is nice too because it has less muzzle blast and flash than most other powders. I can't get my SP101 to shoot anything else accurately. It usually shoots 4"-6" groups at 25 yards. My GP100 is just the opposite, shooting great groups with just about anything I throw at it.
There's been numerous cases where handloaded ammo was an issue. Not the only issue, but one issue. I posted a link above where some of the cases are explained.
 

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SafetyJoe, I guess I just don't understand why someone will turn a perfectly good reloading question into a legal argument ... especially when they don't have a shred of first hand evidence. I agree with Mad Charlie and notathome, Ayoob has created way too much hype without proof. If you do your homework on shooting incidents, guilt and convictions are established based on intent and has nothing to do with the type of gun or ammunition used. In the future, let's keep to the topic and NOT use this forum for legal advise.

Hdpearson13, There are many misconceptions involved with powder burn rates. Most people think ... when a fast burning powder charge totally burns up, it produces a higher velocity. This is NOT a true statement. Fact is ... in any barrel over 4", a slow burning powder such as W-296 / H-110 will generate higher velocities with all bullet weights .... higher than any faster burning powders yet at much lower chamber pressure. With barrels in the 2~4" range, a slightly faster burn rate powder works best to deliver the highest velocity possible. Using QuickLOAD software as a reference, AA#2 takes .4" of bullet travel to reach peak pressure and your 7.8gr in a 357 Mag case with a 125gr XTP should develop about 31k psi chamber pressure and 1000 fps in your SP101. AA#9 takes a long time to burn up ... in fact it doesn't reach 95% until the bullet has traveled about 10 inches so it will create a nice fire ball. That said, as long as powder continues to burn and push a bullet faster it will result in a higher muzzle velocity.

AA#2 is a very fast burning powder ... designed primarily for light target loads with lead bullets and here's why: In order to force a lead bullet to obturate (bump up in diameter so it will seal well in the bore), a very fast burning powder is used that will immediately develop max operating pressure then once the bullet is engraved in the rifling, it literally kick starts the bullet. AA#2 reaches peak pressure in just .4" then propulsion drops off until the bullet drifts out of the muzzle. Slower burn rate powders keep burning and propelling the bullet for several inches of bullet travel, which in turn increases velocity considerably.

The Speer #14 manual (page 896) has a chart for short barreled 357 Mag loads using a 2.5" S&W Mod 19 for chronographing. Speer used a heavier 135gr bullet ... a bit better than a 125gr for short barreled 357s but the concept is the same. Max charges with these powders produced the following velocities: 7.8gr Unique =1109 fps, 9.6gr Power Pistol = 1137 fps, 16gr 2400 = 1176 fps, 18.5gr of H-110 = 1205, 15.5gr AA#9 1258 fps. As you can see the fastest burning powder (Unique) developed the lowest velocity and BTW, Unique is a much slower burner than your AA#2, so it is even worse. The highest velocity is developed with AA#9, which is a medium slow burner ... a bit faster than H-110 but a tad slower than 2400. QuickLOAD predicts chamber pressure with 15.5gr of AA#9 at a near identical pressure to your 7.8gr load of AA#2, but it produces 250 fps more velocity.

I guess what I'm saying is ... AA#2 is the wrong powder for any 357 Mag load ... but especially for snubbies. It generates too much chamber pressure for the paltry velocity. The optimum powders for a 2.5" 357 Mag revolver would be AA#9, 2400, or Blue Dot with the absolute best going to AA#9. Once you get your chronograph, you can prove this concept beyond a shadow of a doubt.
 

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SafetyJoe, I guess I just don't understand why someone will turn a perfectly good reloading question into a legal argument ... especially when they don't have a shred of first hand evidence. I agree with Mad Charlie and notathome, Ayoob has created way too much hype without proof. If you do your homework on shooting incidents, guilt and convictions are established based on intent and has nothing to do with the type of gun or ammunition used. In the future, let's keep to the topic and NOT use this forum for legal advise.
He was asking about what velocity was needed for proper expansion. That tells me he was going to carry his handloads for self defense.
 

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SafetyJoe,
That tells me he was going to carry his handloads for self defense.
But that doesn't give you the right to hijack the thread and inject legal opinions, which DO NOT belong on this forum. If you have any questions, please send me a PM.
 

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To ONE of the questions - the Hornady XTP 125grn is recommended for 800-1600fps impact. For the XTP's, in general, bullet failure with tip shedding and incredibly poor weight retention is expected for anything above 150-200fps faster than their recommended impact velocity range, but going a little over speed won't usually give "failures," just a little too much expansion and a bit of shedding.

If you have 125 XTP-FP's (Flat Points), the velocity range is 1200-1700fps, so your loads (if I remember seeing it above correctly are in the 1200fps range), might not expand reliably, as they'll slip below the minimum expansion velocity at range. BUT... I wouldn't worry much on short range work, just like the tip shedding issue being 150-200fps above their recommended range, usually the XTP's will still expand pretty well for at least 100fps below their recommended range.

There's been numerous cases where handloaded ammo was an issue. Not the only issue, but one issue. I posted a link above where some of the cases are explained.
I spent over 200hrs researching this the year before last, there has never been a single case where handloaded ammunition was ever construed in the courts to represent premeditation or intent.

The Ayoob case that people often assign to for this argument was as follows: A shooter asserted they were X distance from the assailant - a close distance. He had no more rounds of his reloaded ammunition to provide for testing by the ballistic/firearms expert, so factory ammunition was used for their testing. His load was a reduced powder charge, as such, it provided much less powder blast than the standard factory ammo used in the prosecutions testing. As such, the defense team was unable to prove that the assailant was as close as they had asserted, bringing into question the perception of threat by the attacker.

However, I have yet to find ANY OTHER CASE in which handloaded ammunition OR firearm modifications were successfully used to prove any negligence, premeditation, or intent. (AD/ND's with modified light triggers have been upheld, but no intent/premeditation cases there either).
 

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Well, being able to use the powder residue or anything else to your defense is a good thing even if it's not actually needed.
 

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I guess you didn't get the clue. This thread is closed and I don't want to see more discussion about reloaded ammo and self defense.
 
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