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In the past year or so, a LEO was being attacked. He was down on the ground being beaten. IIRC, the perp was either grabbing his gun or had grabbed the gun. A CHL passerby shot the perp. Saved the policeman's life.

But some on here would have looked the other way. "Not a member of my family. Not me being attacked."
Quite possibly true... I refuse to look down on somebody because they decline to get involved in a fight. That may not be the way I would react... or it might be - you never REALLY know what you’re going to do in a given situation until you do it.

Even if you’ve done well under fire in the past, there‘s no way of knowing what you’ll do in the future. I’ve seen men who claimed to be brave (and who had been brave in the past) cowering under fire and others you would have pegged as cowards dashing through shot and shell. So much depends on the situation at the moment.
 

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Yet there really is no training for making that decision at that time. Training is technical (for skills), and as you pointed out some folks who are technically extremely prepared freeze at the decision point.

And yes, no one knows for sure. Some of us have had the opportunity to run into danger, so we may have a little better feel for how we will react. Others have never had that opportunity.

But one can decide on intent ahead of time.
As I see it, the purpose of training is to make the technical aspects of whatever you are doing - shooting, flying, surgery, etc. - so automatic that your brain can focus on making decisions and not be bogged down in the mechanics of what you are doing.

Intent is all well and good, but we run the danger of letting “good intentions” pre-decide a situation before our brains have had the chance to weigh all the evidence. Life is messy and situations are rarely black or white - there’s an awful lot of grey and shadow.
 

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I guess my 2¢ would be situation awareness has to be intentional, logical and consistent. My daughter and I were driving from California to Florida when we stayed the night in El Paso. The next morning we stopped at Wal-Mart to pick up a few items. I needed an air filter for the car, she needed a few things from the pharmaceutical department. We got what we needed were on our way to New Orleans. The next morning the news was reporting a mass shooting at an El Paso Wal-Mart, it was the store we were in just 24hrs previously. I quickly learned a few things after seeing the images on tv and knowing where I was in that store the day before...
 
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As I see it, the purpose of training is to make the technical aspects of whatever you are doing - shooting, flying, surgery, etc. - so automatic that your brain can focus on making decisions and not be bogged down in the mechanics of what you are doing.

Intent is all well and good, but we run the danger of letting “good intentions” pre-decide a situation before our brains have had the chance to weigh all the evidence. Life is messy and situations are rarely black or white - there’s an awful lot of grey and shadow.
If the pre-determined intent is to leave the situation unless personally under threat, one will not be at the scene long enough to weigh the evidence.

If you read what I have posted, I never said that action should be automatic. Quite the opposite, actually.

What I did address was the philosophy of not even considering assisting anyone but one's self or family.
 

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I quoted this not to pick on Breadfan, but because he countered a point I was going to make. I have quit a few gun forums over this issue and known many who carry CCW. As a community, gun owners are very divided on this issue, between those who are prepared to defend ourself/family and not so prepared to defend others. And those who "state" unequivocally they are prepared to defend others.

I have a close friend who is also an attorney and CCDW practitioner. He and I have had some enlightening conversations. We both are of the same mindset here. He commented about the number of people who sued other people that were trying to administer first aide to them, or a family member. In some cases, lives were saved, but in the process somebody got sued when they caused minor harm in the process of rendering aide. Most states had to enact good Samaritan laws to protect people who render first aide. There is no such equivalent with using a firearm. His point being, in court....and you will end up in court, it is many times difficult to even defend against a justified self defense claim, when you are defending yourself.

Our society has become too litigious and is full of scum attorneys taking weak cases on contingency. If you get lucky and escape a conviction helping another, you may still be ruined financially. I for one am not about to intervene in what I believe at the time is an assault, only to later find out was a marital disagreement.

I will not buckle the seat belt for another.

If you disagree with me do it here, do not PM me about it please.
Well said.
 

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As for a philosophy of not assisting others.

I do not impose my morality onto others. I am blessed through my employer to be well trained in CPR and first aide. I have now had 3 instances where I stopped to render first aide while others were either not trained or unwilling to act. I thought no less or no more of them. We are all different. In one instance while out motorcycle riding, three of us stopped and entered a mud filled ditch to help a dying man. This I will do. Some things I will not.

God will be my judge on this one.
 

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If the pre-determined intent is to leave the situation unless personally under threat, one will not be at the scene long enough to weigh the evidence.

If you read what I have posted, I never said that action should be automatic. Quite the opposite, actually.

What I did address was the philosophy of not even considering assisting anyone but one's self or family.
Exactly! The danger with “intent” is that it can predispose us to do things automatically when we really ought to assess each situation on the entirety of the available data.

Whether the intent is to intervene or to NOT intervene, it can skew our decision-making and cause us to act (or not act) without proper consideration.

I don’t look down on those whose stated intent is to NOT intervene - that’s their choice and they will have to live with the consequences, just as those who intend to intervene will have to live with theirs. I can cite examples of people who did either (intervene/not intervene) and eventually either regretted their choice or were glad they made it.

Something one of my commanding officers once said to me seems apropos here: he said “Often, the only difference between a citation for bravery and a court martial is the last paragraph - how it turned out.”
 

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As for a philosophy of not assisting others.

I do not impose my morality onto others. I am blessed through my employer to be well trained in CPR and first aide. I have now had 3 instances where I stopped to render first aide while others were either not trained or unwilling to act. I thought no less or no more of them. We are all different. In one instance while out motorcycle riding, three of us stopped and entered a mud filled ditch to help a dying man. This I will do. Some things I will not.

God will be my judge on this one.
Amen to that .(y)
 

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There are plenty of stories somewhat like this one:


Former marine, cross-fit instructor, armed, intervened in domestic violence, drew, didn’t fire and was shot dead leaving wife and young children.

One thing Massad Ayoob teaches that I do NOT believe in is - the mere presence of a gun will deescalate most criminal activity. From day one of carrying, I decided the pistol is not coming out unless I’ve already made the life-altering, irreversible decision to pull the trigger. I recognize there are all kinds of arguments to the contrary. I feel comfortable having a position established and engrained. Further, (and this somewhat scares my wife), I describe it that if the gun is drawn, I'm unleashing unspeakable violence because it is life or death time.

Like many others have posted, I’m not going to get into someone else’s dispute or fight. I have no idea or background on what lead up to that moment. I carry to protect my love ones and myself. I can't say for sure how I would respond in any given situation - it's too hard to speculate, hypothesize and so on. I do know that when I'm armed, I recognize the absolute need to be more polite, less aggressive and more tolerant than otherwise. If armed, you cannot afford to allow any situation to become physical. All manner of bad can quickly happen.
 

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...
One thing Massad Ayoob teaches that I do NOT believe in is - the mere presence of a gun will deescalate most criminal activity.
...
Amen, brother!

From what I’ve seen, the presence of a gun will de-escalate criminal activity... EXCEPT when it ESCALATES it!

Drawing a gun escalates any encounter into a life-or-death situation. At that point, the criminal decides whether their best choice is to freeze (surrender), flee or fight. If they choose option #3, the situation escalates dramatically.

And remember, most criminals don’t have a track record of making good choices.
 

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There are plenty of stories somewhat like this one:


One thing Massad Ayoob teaches that I do NOT believe in is - the mere presence of a gun will deescalate most criminal activity. From day one of carrying, I decided the pistol is not coming out unless I’ve already made the life-altering, irreversible decision to pull the trigger. I recognize there are all kinds of arguments to the contrary. I feel comfortable having a position established and engrained. Further, (and this somewhat scares my wife), I describe it that if the gun is drawn, I'm unleashing unspeakable violence because it is life or death time.
Agree completely on that point. I will not draw unless I already know I have to shoot.
 

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Trolling? I don't think so.

Must I go back and quote the various people who said they would only use their sidearm if their own life or the lives of their family were in danger?
I get irritated by a lot of things people say about a lot of things. But with this topic, I can't fault anyone's position. This is all hypothetical anyway.
 

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What really worries me the most is if the need comes up for me to defend myself with my weapon, will someone else with a CCW mistake me for the one who is doing the shooting and not the defending, and then shoot me? There are a lot of CCW's out there and in a room of 200 people, there is bound to be 5 or 6 folks carrying. I often put myself in this scenario while eating out. I've almost come to the conclusion that I may not pull my weapon unless I absolutely must to defend myself or my family. I don't want it that way, but then again, I don't want to do something wrong, shoot the wrong person or have someone shoot me because they don't know what's going on. It all sounds so cut and dried. Get weapon, defend oneself. Wrong. Any situation involving flying bullets would be utter chaos.
This is why we instructors still tell you to yell -
SToP!! I am armed will defend myself
Stop! I have a firearm and will defend myself
Stop !! i will shoot!!
 
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One factor with confronting an active shooter is the need to determine if he's wearing body armour. If he is do you go for the head or legs...depends how far away he is. Of course if you have an easy exit take off.
 

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One factor with confronting an active shooter is the need to determine if he's wearing body armour. If he is do you go for the head or legs...depends how far away he is. Of course if you have an easy exit take off.
A hit on soft body armor hurts like hell*, even though it doesn’t penetrate. It would certainly be enough to distract an active shooter. Aiming for the head or legs is a good idea, but hard to hit during the “heat of battle” unless you are really close.

Even a hit on hard plate armor is startling, especially when you get sprayed by bullet (and armor) fragments*. Also, there are large gaps in hard armor coverage.

*lessons from experience
 

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There are plenty of stories somewhat like this one:


Former marine, cross-fit instructor, armed, intervened in domestic violence, drew, didn’t fire and was shot dead leaving wife and young children.

One thing Massad Ayoob teaches that I do NOT believe in is - the mere presence of a gun will deescalate most criminal activity. From day one of carrying, I decided the pistol is not coming out unless I’ve already made the life-altering, irreversible decision to pull the trigger. I recognize there are all kinds of arguments to the contrary. I feel comfortable having a position established and engrained. Further, (and this somewhat scares my wife), I describe it that if the gun is drawn, I'm unleashing unspeakable violence because it is life or death time.

Like many others have posted, I’m not going to get into someone else’s dispute or fight. I have no idea or background on what lead up to that moment. I carry to protect my love ones and myself. I can't say for sure how I would respond in any given situation - it's too hard to speculate, hypothesize and so on. I do know that when I'm armed, I recognize the absolute need to be more polite, less aggressive and more tolerant than otherwise. If armed, you cannot afford to allow any situation to become physical. All manner of bad can quickly happen.
I was filling up when approached at a gas station by a BIG scruffy looking guy who asked for a lift, told him this was my work van, I'm working right now, sorry, no can do....he kept insisting, 'come on, just down the road'...I said no again...he got angry and said 'Why not? Because I'm Hispanic?'...I said 'No, because I'm working'...the van was high enough that no one on the other side could have seen what was going on...at that point he clenched his fists and took steps towards me...so I turned 90° away from him and put my right hand back on my OWB gun, shook my head no and said 'uh uh'...he stopped dead in his tracks, looked at me for a second and then turned and walked off. That was close. One more step and who knows....


Luckily he didn't call me on it....because I had left my gun in the van, on the floor between the seats, but didn't flinch when I reached back and my hand hit the empty spot on my belt where the gun should have been, under my shirt. It was definitely an 'OH ****!' moment. I kept a poker face, my hand behind me, stared him down right in the eyes and held my ground. Got really lucky that time.
 

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I was filling up when approached at a gas station by a BIG scruffy looking guy who asked for a lift, told him this was my work van, I'm working right now, sorry, no can do....he kept insisting, 'come on, just down the road'...I said no again...he got angry and said 'Why not? Because I'm Hispanic?'...I said 'No, because I'm working'...the van was high enough that no one on the other side could have seen what was going on...at that point he clenched his fists and took steps towards me...so I turned 90° away from him and put my right hand back on my OWB gun, shook my head no and said 'uh uh'...he stopped dead in his tracks, looked at me for a second and then turned and walked off. That was close. One more step and who knows....


Luckily he didn't call me on it....because I had left my gun in the van, on the floor between the seats, but didn't flinch when I reached back and my hand hit the empty spot on my belt where the gun should have been. I kept a poker face, stared him down right in the eyes and held my ground. Got lucky that time.
W a call name like Doc Holliday, he knew you were bad w o your gun. 😊
 
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