[wiz1997]

Just a couple replies:

#1: The transfer bar is another thing to move during the trigger pull. It is linked to the trigger, kind of like the series 80 linkage on a 1911. You're probably right that modern sears are cut for heavier pulls, but I can't recall ever testing a New Model that had a better trigger than an Old Model. Usually by considerable margin. That transfer bar is always there and always has to get moved as part of the trigger pull. It has inertia that is never going away.

#2: The Plum does look good, although I was referring to the polish. And today's bluing is terrible. There's almost no polish on the metal!

#3: I would NEVER load a single action revolver that way. When you lower the hammer right near the half cock notch, firstly you have a chance of breaking it off. I would always go to full cock prior to lowering. Secondly, when you lower the hammer in between notches, your bolt is grinding into the cylinder between the notches! The cylinder is unlocked and you're effectively locking it with your firing pin. With 357 models there's a lot of space between rims and a lot of opportunity for the cylinder to move between rims! You'll score a nice line into your unlocked cylinder with the bolt! You probably also aren't doing any favors to your firing pin with even a little rotational torque. If you have a molded holster (with fluted cylinder), your gun won't fit anymore because the cylinder is now out of alignment from where it is when it is locked.

Bottom line: Don't do this. This is silly. Load 5 like they have since 1873. Are you using your Ruger Blackhawk for self defense anyway? Five should be just fine for silhouettes, hunting, plinking, etc. I doubt Ruger ever referred to this method in their literature. They simply advise loading 5 with an Old Model. If you absolutely must load six, by all means just get a New Model. Your gun should always be carried with the cylinder locked normally by the bolt, not with the firing pin!

#4: The four clicks are indeed cool, but I agree, they are just cosmetic. The feature that I was referring to is the indexing detents between chambers while loading. With the new model, unfortunately, they are gone. When you open the gate, the cylinder just spins freely without the detent clicks to align the chambers like the SAA.

#5: Ruger Old Models (And Colt SAAs) are just as safe, if not safer. You only load five so there are no safety issues whatsoever. If you cowboy load, there's not even a worry with the "thumb slip" because your thumb would slip the hammer down on an empty chamber.

Both models are great but the Old Models are special. A 4 5/8s" Flattop from the 50s is superb. You just can't get that intangible "something" from a new one. Who cares about a 6th round? That's like lamenting the fact that a 1962 Ferrari 250 GTO doesn't have cruise control. There's a reason that the Old Models are much more desirable and expensive today.

OK, I'll bite.

What is this bolt you state is dragging on the cylinder?

I find no reference to a "bolt" in any parts list for either the NM or OM.

 

[PriseDeFer]

On the cars, it's more than just old times. The cars were very different, Different from now and different from each other. Stylists were not ruled by the wind tunnel and CAFE. Each car had its own personality, not just variations of the jelly bean. Been behind anything as wild as the rear end of a 1959 Chevy Impala lately?

 

[Iowegan]

Prise .... off your meds again?

wiz1997, Baxter is speaking a foreign language (Coltese) In Ruger talk, a bolt is called a cylinder latch. Before a cylinder latch can scar a cylinder, the cylinder must rotate. Using the Ruger loading method, the cylinder does not rotate after it is locked by the firing pin so there won't be a drag line on the cylinder.

Here's one on my OM 357 Mag Blackhawks. This is the only one of my OMs I have fired .... maybe 500 rounds and I've always used the Ruger method of loading. I know that's not a huge number but there isn't the slightest hint of a turn line on this gun.

 

[Outlander987]

OK, I'll bite.

What is this bolt you state is dragging on the cylinder?

I find no reference to a "bolt" in any parts list for either the NM or OM.

it s the part that goe s up and down during cylinder rotation that locks into the cylinder cuts to hold the cylinder in proper position for firing etc. You see it sticking up from the bottom of the cylinder frame window. If it is out of "time" or not fit properly it can cause a drag line on the cylinder.

 

[Outlander987]

Prise .... off your meds again?

wiz1997, Baxter is speaking a foreign language (Coltese) In Ruger talk, a bolt is called a cylinder latch. Before a cylinder latch can scar a cylinder, the cylinder must rotate. Using the Ruger loading method, the cylinder does not rotate so there won't be a drag line on the cylinder.

Here's one on my OM 357 Mag Blackhawks. This is the only one of my OMs I have fired .... maybe 500 rounds and I've always used the Ruger method of loading. I know that's not a huge number but there isn't the slightest hint of a turn line on this gun.

What is the "Ruger Loading method?" How can you load a cylinder with out turning the cylinder?

 

[Iowegan]

Outlander, My post wasn't perfectly clear, so I did an edit. You can't load a cylinder without turning it. That's not really the issues because when an Old Model hammer is at half cock for the loading process, the cylinder latch is pulled down and doesn't touch the cylinder. Ruger Loading Method: After you have fully loaded an OM, pull the hammer back just far enough to release the half cock notch and with the trigger pulled, ease the hammer fully forward, then close the loading gate. The hammer will push the firing pin forward between case heads and lock it into position so the cylinder can't rotate, thus no turn line. It is safe to carry an OM with all six chambers loaded and the hammer/firing pin locked between case heads.

New Models load a bit different. The hammer has to be fully forward and the loading gate must be open. The loading gate will contact a stud on the cylinder latch (as seen in the below photo) and will pull the cylinder latch down and release it from the cylinder. You then rotate the cylinder and load each chamber. Once you are finished loading, just close the loading gate. The cylinder will then be secured by the cylinder latch locked into one of the cylinder's lock notches. When you cock the hammer, the hammer plunger momentarily releases the cylinder latch so the pawl can start to rotate the cylinder. After a few degrees of cylinder rotation, the hammer plunger will cam off the cylinder latch and allow it to spring up and rub on the cylinder. This will indeed cause a turn line to develop.

Unless you abuse an Old Model by spinning the cylinder when the hammer is at about 1/4 cock (called "singing" the cylinder), you won't see a cylinder turn line develop. Both an Old Model (without the transfer bar conversion) and a New Model have a spring-loaded plunger in the hammer. The plunger protrudes far enough where it will contact the rear extension of the cylinder latch. This "see-saw" motion pushes the rear of the latch up, which in turn pulls the front of the latch down to release the cylinder. Old Models with the transfer bar conversion have a totally different cylinder latch and no hammer plunger. Here's a photo of the three types of hammers and cylinder latches with the Old Model on the left, New Model on the right and conversion parts in the center. You will note .... there is no hammer plunger in the center hammer and the cylinder latch looks totally different.

 

[Druban]

On the cars, it's more than just old times. The cars were very different, Different from now and different from each other. Stylists were not ruled by the wind tunnel and CAFE. Each car had its own personality, not just variations of the jelly bean. Been behind anything as wild as the rear end of a 1959 Chevy Impala lately?

Only on a human. Those keep getting wilder and wilder.

 

[Druban]

Unless you abuse an Old Model by spinning the cylinder when the hammer is at about 1/4 cock (called "singing" the cylinder), you won't see a cylinder turn line develop.

Based on the knowledge in this thread and important info from you in particular, Iowegan, I am now in ten-day purgatory for an old model!
The mention of ‘singing’ the cylinder raised the hair on the back of my neck! The one I bought doesn’t have a turn line, but the one I decided not to get had one, along with a forward trigger, and from your last post I can conclude that the former owner may have had a different attitude towards his firearms than I do.
Additionally, the manual for ye Olde Model kind of describes the fully loaded method you describe without advocating it and without directly explaining that the pin is in between rounds, although it does mention the cylinder is out of time in this position, so in a roundabout way it does.
Although I have passed ten day purgatory several times I’m always on tenterhooks during it so keep your fingers crossed for me!

 

[Iowegan]

Druban, To quote an old saying .... "Good things come to those that wait!" I'm sure you will be happy with your Old Model .... just be careful and don't abuse it. Maybe you mentioned the caliber ... .357 Mag by chance?

Yes, the forward trigger and the cylinder drag line are a sure indication of abuse. I've had many OMs come into my shop with thousands of rounds fired and nary a flaw. I've also had OMs that had been badly abused. Seems some idiots like to hear the cylinder sing when the cylinder is spun with the hammer positioned just right. This is something a New Model won't do so those OM owners think it's as cool as the 4 clicks.

 

[Druban]

Druban, To quote an old saying .... "Good things come to those that wait!" I'm sure you will be happy with your Old Model .... just be careful and don't abuse it. Maybe you mentioned the caliber ... .357 Mag by chance?

Yes, the forward trigger and the cylinder drag line are a sure indication of abuse. I've had many OMs come into my shop with thousands of rounds fired and nary a flaw. I've also had OMs that had been badly abused. Seems some idiots like to hear the cylinder sing when the cylinder is spun with the hammer positioned just right. This is something a New Model won't do so those OM owners think it's as cool as the 4 clicks.

She’s a .44 SBH OM, Iowegan. And only a year younger than me so I don’t have to feel like I’m robbing the cradle.
Probably going to kick my butt around the range at first, but I’ve always liked a lady with some fire to her.

 

[Iowegan]

Oh, you WILL get some fire from the old girl. If you don't hit the target, you can roast it with the muzzle flash. Also, it kicks just a little harder than your average 22 LR and makes a hell of a lot of noise. Way fun!

 

[C.C. Baxter]

OK, I'll bite.

What is this bolt you state is dragging on the cylinder?

I find no reference to a "bolt" in any parts list for either the NM or OM.

The bolt is the thing that pops up out of the frame and engages into your cylinder notches. Yes that is "Coltese" (I like that )...the official term that Ruger uses is "cylinder latch."

 

[C.C. Baxter]

Prise .... off your meds again?

wiz1997, Baxter is speaking a foreign language (Coltese) In Ruger talk, a bolt is called a cylinder latch. Before a cylinder latch can scar a cylinder, the cylinder must rotate. Using the Ruger loading method, the cylinder does not rotate after it is locked by the firing pin so there won't be a drag line on the cylinder.

Here's one on my OM 357 Mag Blackhawks. This is the only one of my OMs I have fired .... maybe 500 rounds and I've always used the Ruger method of loading. I know that's not a huge number but there isn't the slightest hint of a turn line on this gun.

Try this: Take an Old Model 357 Magnum and lower the hammer in between chambers with empties loaded. I've got one in hand now. Now rotate the cylinder left, then right, then left, then right.

Like I mentioned, there is lots of room between the rims with a 357 Magnum. The cylinder absolutely moves back and forth between them, bolt (cylinder latch) bearing on the cylinder, in between notches. (Imagine if you did this with a 32 caliber or 30 Carbine...there'd be even more room).

Revolvers are meant to be at rest with their cylinder locked (by the bolt, not the firing pin). I'm shocked that anyone would recommend putting them into a situation where they are unlocked, with the tiny firing pin sitting between brass rims as the only means of lockup, let alone claim that Ruger recommends this.

Also, would you really want to drop an unlocked revolver that is using its firing pin as the cylinder stop? The only thing that could be worse than dropping a gun would be to drop it in that condition.

Could you point us to any official documentation where Ruger recommends doing this?

 

[C.C. Baxter]

See below in RED:

I've attached the Official Ruger instructions from the Old Model Manual. There's no mention of a hammer position between chambers or a loading procedure keeping the gun unlocked.

Outlander, My post wasn't perfectly clear, so I did an edit. You can't load a cylinder without turning it. That's not really the issues because when an Old Model hammer is at half cock for the loading process, the cylinder latch is pulled down and doesn't touch the cylinder. Ruger Loading Method: After you have fully loaded an OM, pull the hammer back just far enough to release the half cock notch and with the trigger pulled, ease the hammer fully forward, then close the loading gate (<--At this point, you've just released the bolt (cylinder latch) purposely in between notches. It's going to pop up and smack the flat part of the cylinder (instead of landing in the notch lead). Since you have placed the revolver into a condition that it was never designed for, the bolt (cylinder latch) will now be bearing on the cylinder in between the notches, instead of in one of the notches when the hammer is down, as it was designed. Any rotation you now apply to the cylinder will result in the bolt (cylinder latch) rubbing on the cylinder. 357 Mag rims are small, so there is plenty of room to allow movement between them. Also, you are bashing your firing pin into one of the rims if the cylinder somehow turns hard. To be clear, the gun is NOT locked in this condition. This is NOT the way Ruger designed it, nor is it the "Ruger Loading Method."). The hammer will push the firing pin forward between case heads and lock it into position so the cylinder can't rotate, thus no turn line. It is safe to carry an OM with all six chambers loaded and the hammer/firing pin locked between case heads.

 

[C.C. Baxter]

Based on the knowledge in this thread and important info from you in particular, Iowegan, I am now in ten-day purgatory for an old model!
The mention of ‘singing’ the cylinder raised the hair on the back of my neck! The one I bought doesn’t have a turn line, but the one I decided not to get had one, along with a forward trigger, and from your last post I can conclude that the former owner may have had a different attitude towards his firearms than I do.
Additionally, the manual for ye Olde Model kind of describes the fully loaded method you describe without advocating it and without directly explaining that the pin is in between rounds, although it does mention the cylinder is out of time in this position, so in a roundabout way it does.
Although I have passed ten day purgatory several times I’m always on tenterhooks during it so keep your fingers crossed for me!

By all means, you can spin it. That big cylinder of the SBH makes a great sound. But MAKE SURE it's on half cock! Don't try to hold the hammer in position where the cylinder is unlocked. That's what the half cock notch is for!

 

[Iowegan]

C.C. Baxter, What you have is a revised owner's manual that was shipped with nearly all Old Models. The very first Old Model owner's manual had the loading procedure that I posted earlier. Turned out, Ruger was sued countless times for advertising their Single-Sixes, Blackhawks, and Super Blackhawks as 6-shooters, using the original loading procedure. Colt was NOT being sued because their 5-shooter procedure dated back to 1873 so judges figured it was OK after about 80 years on the market. As such, Ruger revised their owner's manual and used the Colt method of loading .... not because it was better but because there was less risk of a law suite. If you can find an original owner's manual, dating back to the 1950s, you will see the factory recommended loading procedure. Another issue .... why would Ruger take the extra time and expense to cut a firing pin groove in the cylinder if there wasn't a good reason? BTW, look at your owner's manual and locate the paragraph below where it says "Fig 2 Safety Notice". Do you see anything unusual? The next paragraph is in a different font and has narrow margins. That's because the original owner's manual was copied with a cut and paste blurb that recommends the Colt technique. These and many more Ruger quirks are noted in references by subject matter experts .... not just something I made up. Maybe you should read more and accuse less.

As for cylinder scratches due to movement, read my previous post #63. If a 357 Mag got scratched from the original loading procedure, why isn't my Blackhawk cylinder scratched? One of those "in theory versus practical applications." No scratches, no turn line, I always used the old Ruger loading method. There's nothing wrong with the Colt method of loading .... I just prefer to operate my gun the way Ruger designed it, and yes, they did indeed design it to be loaded as I posted.

 

[rem33]

Why?
Because they function like a single action revolver should.

 

[Outlander987]

Outlander, My post wasn't perfectly clear, so I did an edit. You can't load a cylinder without turning it. That's not really the issues because when an Old Model hammer is at half cock for the loading process, the cylinder latch is pulled down and doesn't touch the cylinder. Ruger Loading Method: After you have fully loaded an OM, pull the hammer back just far enough to release the half cock notch and with the trigger pulled, ease the hammer fully forward, then close the loading gate. The hammer will push the firing pin forward between case heads and lock it into position so the cylinder can't rotate, thus no turn line. It is safe to carry an OM with all six chambers loaded and the hammer/firing pin locked between case heads.

New Models load a bit different. The hammer has to be fully forward and the loading gate must be open. The loading gate will contact a stud on the cylinder latch (as seen in the below photo) and will pull the cylinder latch down and release it from the cylinder. You then rotate the cylinder and load each chamber. Once you are finished loading, just close the loading gate. The cylinder will then be secured by the cylinder latch locked into one of the cylinder's lock notches. When you cock the hammer, the hammer plunger momentarily releases the cylinder latch so the pawl can start to rotate the cylinder. After a few degrees of cylinder rotation, the hammer plunger will cam off the cylinder latch and allow it to spring up and rub on the cylinder. This will indeed cause a turn line to develop.

Unless you abuse an Old Model by spinning the cylinder when the hammer is at about 1/4 cock (called "singing" the cylinder), you won't see a cylinder turn line develop. Both an Old Model (without the transfer bar conversion) and a New Model have a spring-loaded plunger in the hammer. The plunger protrudes far enough where it will contact the rear extension of the cylinder latch. This "see-saw" motion pushes the rear of the latch up, which in turn pulls the front of the latch down to release the cylinder. Old Models with the transfer bar conversion have a totally different cylinder latch and no hammer plunger. Here's a photo of the three types of hammers and cylinder latches with the Old Model on the left, New Model on the right and conversion parts in the center. You will note .... there is no hammer plunger in the center hammer and the cylinder latch looks totally different.

thank you for taking the time to explain.

 

[C.C. Baxter]

C.C. Baxter, What you have is a revised owner's manual that was shipped with nearly all Old Models. The very first Old Model owner's manual had the loading procedure that I posted earlier. Turned out, Ruger was sued countless times for advertising their Single-Sixes, Blackhawks, and Super Blackhawks as 6-shooters, using the original loading procedure. Colt was NOT being sued because their 5-shooter procedure dated back to 1873 so judges figured it was OK after about 80 years on the market. As such, Ruger revised their owner's manual and used the Colt method of loading .... not because it was better but because there was less risk of a law suite. If you can find an original owner's manual, dating back to the 1950s, you will see the factory recommended loading procedure. Another issue .... why would Ruger take the extra time and expense to cut a firing pin groove in the cylinder if there wasn't a good reason? BTW, look at your owner's manual and locate the paragraph below where it says "Fig 2 Safety Notice". Do you see anything unusual? The next paragraph is in a different font and has narrow margins. That's because the original owner's manual was copied with a cut and paste blurb that recommends the Colt technique. These and many more Ruger quirks are noted in references by subject matter experts .... not just something I made up. Maybe you should read more and accuse less.

As for cylinder scratches due to movement, read my previous post #63. If a 357 Mag got scratched from the original loading procedure, why isn't my Blackhawk cylinder scratched? One of those "in theory versus practical applications." No scratches, no turn line, I always used the old Ruger loading method. There's nothing wrong with the Colt method of loading .... I just prefer to operate my gun the way Ruger designed it, and yes, they did indeed design it to be loaded as I posted.

Hmm well I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree here, Iowegan. Even in the face of Ruger's actual manual that dates to the late 60s, you still say this is not really Ruger's actual intention. You say their official method is something that isn't even printed in their official manual. I guess no amount of logic, reasoning, or evidence will change your mind. You say that they were sued for advertising 6-shots, but the method you mention that they supposedly put in their manual in the 1950s did specify 6 shots, didn't it? If you ever find this mythical passage in the literature, I'd love to see it. I'm interested to see how they would even phrase it. Surely someone has a copy of a manual old enough to see this, wouldn't you think? It's gotta be online somewhere?

Regarding the groove in the cylinder: Ruger Old Models with recessed chambers had them. Old Models without recessed chambers did not. HOWEVER, current new models with recessed chambers ALSO have the groove in some cases. Surely you're not implying that guns with modern transfer bars need that groove to rest the hammer between chambers?

That groove was machined because as the instruction manual indicates above, it's possible for one to get a 4 click single action out of index, unless you do everything properly and in the same sequence and order. If you snap the hammer even once on a gun that isn't locked up properly and is out of index, you could break or damage the firing pin or the cylinder (on guns with recessed chambers). It's for this very simple reason that it is there. Same thing applies to New Models as well.

My Smith Model 19-3 has recessed chambers and has a relief cut where the firing pin would strike in between chambers too. It's a DA revolver with a rebounding hammer. The relief is there simply so there is no possibility of the firing pin striking the chamber if the hammer is snapped while the gun is out of battery. These relief cuts are nothing uncommon and certainly not unique to Ruger Old Models.

Here's a modern New Model with the "groove." Obviously it's not there for loading 6 with hammer down between chambers on a New Model, wouldn't you at least agree to that?

 

[Outlander987]

Hmm well I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree here, Iowegan. Even in the face of Ruger's actual manual that dates to the late 60s, you still say this is not really Ruger's actual intention. You say their official method is something that isn't even printed in their official manual. I guess no amount of logic, reasoning, or evidence will change your mind. You say that they were sued for advertising 6-shots, but the method you mention that they supposedly put in their manual in the 1950s did specify 6 shots, didn't it? If you ever find this mythical passage in the literature, I'd love to see it. I'm interested to see how they would even phrase it. Surely someone has a copy of a manual old enough to see this, wouldn't you think? It's gotta be online somewhere?

Regarding the groove in the cylinder: Ruger Old Models with recessed chambers had them. Old Models without recessed chambers did not. HOWEVER, current new models with recessed chambers ALSO have the groove in some cases. Surely you're not implying that guns with modern transfer bars need that groove to rest the hammer between chambers?

That groove was machined because as the instruction manual indicates above, it's possible for one to get a 4 click single action out of index, unless you do everything properly and in the same sequence and order. If you snap the hammer even once on a gun that isn't locked up properly and is out of index, you could break or damage the firing pin or the cylinder (on guns with recessed chambers). It's a very simple reason that it is there. Same thing applies to New Models as well.

My Smith Model 19-3 has recessed chambers and has a relief cut where the firing pin would strike in between chambers too. It's a DA revolver with a rebounding hammer. The relief is there simply so there is no possibility of the firing pin striking the chamber if the hammer is snapped while the gun is out of battery. These relief cuts are nothing uncommon and certainly not unique to Ruger Old Models.

Here's a modern New Model with the "groove." Obviously it's not there for loading 6 with hammer down on a New Model, wouldn't you at least agree to that?

View attachment 191986

I have no idea what the relief cut in some cylinders is for? I have never found a clear, explanation that made sense. I often thought it had to do with "dry Firing", but I really do not know. Does anyone have definitive proof why there are relief cuts in the cylinder?