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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Does anyone know if the 64gr. Power Point bullets have a cannelure or not? If not, can they still be used in an AR platform? I've always used cannelured bullets in AR platforms so I can get a good crimp. Thanks in advance.
 

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TheMrNotSoFamous, Winchester makes 4 different 64gr .224" bullets ... the Power Point (lead tip, metal jacket) has a ballistic coefficient of .234 and is available with or without a cannelure. FYI "crimp grooves" are only found in lead bullets .... jacketed bullets either have a cannelure or are smooth with no cannelure, but never with a crimp groove. Factory Winchester ammo loaded with a 64gr Power Point bullet is rated at 3020 fps from a 24" barrel.
 

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I can only find one 64gr Power Point bullet on Winchester's website, WB223PP64, and the website shows few specifics about it - shows a loaded round for the graphic and not the bullet (Bullets Centerfire Rifle). I can't tell from the graphic if it has a cannelure or not.

I have 1,000 of what I THOUGHT were Winchester 64gr PSP (Power Soft Point) in the basement, but the Winchester website also shows that these are only available as 50gr?!? So, evidently, what I have is the WB223PP64. I'll go take a look at them in a few to find out if they have a cannelure or not....

- Jay
 

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I checked the supply I have of Winchester 64gr PSP and they don't have the cannelure. I picked these up from Midway about 4 years ago.
 

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I think the point of the OP, was the cannelure.

So the question becomes, do you need to use bullets with a cannelure in an AR?

Personally I've heard it both ways. In a LGS a guy who shoots/reloads a lot says he's never used bullets w/cannelure and never had a problem.

I go to another LGS and their reloading guy says YES! In fact he has blown AR's out back as a result of shooting non-cannelure ammo that have suffered bullet jump.

Me? I use cannelure ammo. 1) Better safe than sorry 2) Uncle Sam & NATO use cannelures and I *think* they know more than I do.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks for the replies.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I think the point of the OP, was the cannelure.

So the question becomes, do you need to use bullets with a cannelure in an AR?

Personally I've heard it both ways. In a LGS a guy who shoots/reloads a lot says he's never used bullets w/cannelure and never had a problem.

I go to another LGS and their reloading guy says YES! In fact he has blown AR's out back as a result of shooting non-cannelure ammo that have suffered bullet jump.

Me? I use cannelure ammo. 1) Better safe than sorry 2) Uncle Sam & NATO use cannelures and I *think* they know more than I do.
I've heard it both ways as well hence the question.
 

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Couldn't find mine (in the midst of a move), but I'm pretty sure they do NOT have a cannelure. I'll leave it others regarding using non-cannelure bullets in an AR.

- Jay
 

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There is more to this than just a cannelure. The neck tension on the bullet from the diameter of the expander ball. Military ammo also uses sealants supposedly for waterproofing but by all accounts acts like a glue. Is all this necessary in an AR? I guess it could depend on the rifle. Keep in mind too that the military specs ammo to be used under all sorts of possible adversities and some that they cannot imagine. Overkill possibly. It is not an AR but I have shot all kinds of no cannelure bullets in my Mini 14 and I cannot ever remember crimping any 223 ammo that I put together.

I have in the past had some Winchester Power Point bullets that had cannelures. I have no idea if they all do or not but it seems from the other comments it goes both ways. No more recoil than 223/5.56 ammo has I am not so sure bullets jump is the problem. I would think the bullets getting jammed back into the case during feeding would be more likely.
 

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I have some 224" Winchester Power Point 64gr bullets that DO have a cannelure. These were purchased in a bulk pack of 1000 with a Winchester part number of WB223PP64C. I have also seen the same bullets WITHOUT a cannelure.

Here's the deal on reloading 223 Rem/5.56 NATO ammo. First, if the cartridges are used in a bolt action ... or anything but a semi-auto, there is no need to crimp, thus no need for a cannelure. If the cartridges are used in a semi-auto, it's best to crimp.

Bullets manufactured specifically for semi-auto rifles will have a cannelure so the cartridges can be roll crimped (applies to all calibers). Bullets manufactured for non-semi-autos do not have a cannelure, however if you buy a taper crimp die, you can also use non-cannelure bullets in a semi-auto.

There are two types of crimp dies for 223 Rem/5.56 NATO ammo. The first type is a roll crimp and is normally part of a standard bullet seating die. To use the roll crimp (cannelure required), you first seat all bullets in your batch to the proper depth. You then back out the bullet seater stem and adjust the die body depth until it provides the proper roll crimp when the press handle is all the way down. Once adjusted, crimp all cartridges in the batch. If you try to roll crimp bullets without a cannelure or apply too much crimp, I guarantee you will distort the bullets.

The second type is a taper crimp only die. This is used after all bullets have been seated to the proper depth, then run through a taper crimp only die. Taper crimps are normally applied to "smooth bullets" (no cannelure) when used in semi-autos, however taper crimps are also effective with cannelures too. I highly recommend Redding 223 Rem taper crimp dies ... top shelf.

Before either type of crimp is used, all cases must be trimmed to a uniform length (+or- .0025"), otherwise some cases may be over crimped while other are under crimped. A properly applied crimp adds about 10% to neck tension ... not as much as you might expect. Most of the neck tension comes from a properly annealed case combined with a properly sized expander ball .... which is located on the sizing die's depriming stem. When the combined neck tension and crimp is set properly, it should take about 45 lbs of pressure applied to the bullet nose to dislodge the bullet .... about 40 lbs without a crimp.

Why the controversy about crimping??? As mentioned above, for non-semi-autos, a crimp is not necessary and may distort bullets where they don't fly in a true path. So .... for those bolt action rifles, accuracy will usually be better when cartridges are NOT crimped. That doesn't mean you can't shoot crimped cartridges in a bolt action ... it just means accuracy will probably be better when a crimp is NOT used.

Semi-auto are a totally different story because it concerns the safe feeding function of the rifle. When the nose of the bullet contacts the feed ramp, it can dislodge the bullet and drive it further into the case. This can cause an over pressure situation. As the bolt slams home when feeding, the recoil spring drives the cartridge much like a kinetic bullet puller and will cause the bullet to be pulled from the case until it contacts the lands. This also causes an over pressure situation .... plus if you extract the live cartridge from the chamber, there's a good chance the bullet will stick in the throat and allow powder to spill into the rifle's receiver. This applies to ALL semi-autos .... not just to ARs. A properly crimped bullet will help prevent the bullet from moving during the feeding process, thus a much safer load.
 

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I'm over a quarter million rounds fired through AR-15's, should break over a half million next year, the vast majority of those rounds being Hornady 50grn V-max's, with a large volume of 60grn Partitions and 75grn A-max's, none of which have cannelures.

Apply a proper taper crimp and the bullets won't go anywhere.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Thanks again for the replies. Hope everyone has a Merry Christmas!
 
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