They say that the new Vaquero can't shoot the type of ammo needed to be good protection for the big bears. The .357 is OK if it will handle rounds like the Buffalo Bore 180gr or the Grizzly 200gr. But what I hear it would wreck the Vaquero.

 

The 357 is OK if it will handle rounds like the Buffalo Bore 180gr or the Grizzly 200gr. but what I hear it would wreck the Vaquero.

Just curious, why would a NV in .357 not be able to handle those .357 loads? BB says their 180gr .357 is safe to use in any .357 Magnum in working order.

 

Well a 357 against bear is better then throwing rocks IMHO! The 357 is a great round but way under size for bear. 45 is more suited for the task. I have been in a few confrontations with bear and all have split quickly when a warning shot was fired in the air. But that time they dont run and charge you things happen fast and you need heavy bullets to shut them down!

 

I wouldn't carry a .357 magnum against anything that's not under 300#...when you start breaking the 300# barrier, I'd go heavier, like .44 magnum or .454 Casull (which the Ruger Alaskan will shoot the .45 Colt round as well.)

If you choose to go with .45 Colt...just keep in mind that Littlestone's builds a nice .45 Colt +P round that serves as an intermittent round between standard .45 Colt and the .454 Casull...and it's a nice fit in the performance gap between the two. If I remember correctly, Buffalo Bore offers a .45 Colt +P round as well.

I wouldn't recommend shooting the .45 Colt +P through a Vaquaro though...just sayin'.

Littlestone's Ammo: .45 COLT +P

 

If you are fixed on getting a Vaquero my advice would be a large frame 45 Colt Bisley. My only 44 mag left in the safe is a Bisley Vaquero and it's capable of killing just about anything in North America if needed. I've shot a decent amount of 300, 325, and 340 gr at max and they pack quite a punch in handy package. If you are looking at the smaller frame New Vaquero those can still be loaded to about 2/3 the energy of a large frame gun. At 20-23K psi you can expect 650-750 ft-lbs with a 285gr bullet in 45 Colt depending on barrel length. For this intermediate level between standard 45 Colt at 14k psi and Ruger only 30K CUP you will need to load your own. For my money I'd trust a 285 gr bullet with .452" diameter over the 180gr and .358" given they both have about the same energy. One last thing to consider, I have 5.5" Bisleys in both the small and large frames. The difference in size and weight doesn't bother me with the larger gun. In fact the small frame 357 weighs one ounce more than the large frame 45.

 

Well, Brian Peace's son downed a large Black Bear (hunting) with a .45 Colt revolver (documented in a Handloader magazine). The revolver was the 'medium frame' flattop (same as the New Vaquero).... Not the large frame. I load mine with the Linebaugh HS-6 load (Tier 2) which works in both my medium and large frame revolvers. That's my 'carry' round for the woods. I kind of let 'other' real-world experiences be my guide when selecting a woods defense revolver as my experence is limited. Max Prasac books are a good reference of 'real' hunter experiences too. Seyfried, Linebaugh, and others.... Read up.

That said, I reload, so can taylor my loads. Since you don't you have choices of wimpy (usually) factory .45 Colt loads, or Ruger Only Loads (Buffalo Bore) which are only safe in the large frame revolvers. Might want to look around for a large frame original Vaquero or BH.

 

rclark, I also use the HS-6 load in my medium frame guns. They look quite impressive from the business end of the cylinder when loaded with a wide metplat.

 

Easy question to answer-

If you reload, 45Colt

If you do not reload, 357Mag

 

Actually, the choice depends on how much you want to tick the bear off before he eats you. If you plan on putting the bear down, a .44 mag is the better medicine for the chore.

 

Yep, whichever one you choose, file the front right down flush with the barrel.

 

Geez guys, given the OP's location, I'm assuming little blackies. They're not very hard to kill.

 

In that case, +1.

 

It depends on the bear. There's a lot of good advice here OP but you gotta take a little from each thread. I'm no expert myself. But of course I'll chime in.

The bigger the bear, the bigger the bullet required and hotter too. .357 is usually considered inadequate for the larger browns, etc. Although there is a small camp that claims the smaller diameter .357 penetrates better (very small). .45 Colt is a great round and can be loaded up to kill most any bear. But it's generally agreed that you need a larger frame gun than a New Vaquero for those loads.

I split the difference and got a SBH 44mag.

Good luck.

 

As somebody else mentioned, if you don't reload, a lot of the .45 LC ammunition is loaded "soft" out of respect for the older Colt SAA's out there. You can buy hotter .45 LC ammunition, but then the question is how much the Vaquero can handle - that I don't know. I'd feel OK with a Super Blackhawk and super-hot .45 LC ammunition, but that's not the gun you want to buy.

I know that some people hunt black bear in the "lower 48" with a .357 Magnum - then again, "some people" hunt Kodiak bears with a bow - but there's a difference between hunting a bear and having a bear hunt you. As others have suggested, a heavy, solid (cast) lead bullet with a stout powder load behind it is what you need to get to the vitals of an angry bruin. Don't use hollowpoints or even "soft points"; we've had a few bear attacks around here where the bear was shot multiple times with hollowpoint bullets, including one with a .357 Mag (at least one was a 9mm - not much help there), and the hollowpoints stopped before hitting anything important.

I occasionally pack my GP100 for lighweight bear protection among the huckleberries and it is loaded with 180 gr cast bullets (they look a bit like lead beer barrels) over as much H110 as the law allows. I haven't tested them to see if they'll stop a black bear, but I prefer that to relying on pepper spray. My true "go-to" gun for bear protection is a Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70.

Somebody else will have to opine on the .45 LC in the Vaquero - I know that high-power .45 LC loads have been reported to be effective on everything from squirrels to T-rex (not sure about the reliability of that last report, though), but I've heard that the Vaquero may not by up to the task for those heavy .45 LC loads.


Jim

 

Yes that has been my finding too that the vaquero won't hold up to heavy rounds, but my understanding was that the New Vaquero also can't handle .357 either, maybe that was just the Birds Head models idk.
I understood that the .357 was originally used way back when police commonly carried .38 which couldn't stop a fleeing car, so they started carrying .357 mag because it would pierce an engine block. If this is fact then I don't see how it couldn't penetrate a bear to do some major damage, after all we aren't talking grizzlies here.
I am in recreation and parks and have worked in a park where we had a minimum of eight black bears. Half of which had cubs (at least two), people made multiple reports of seeing them every week. Most people would keep their distance and watch them for a very short amount of time, very very rarely did we ever hear of an even semi agressive bear, or rangers would chase them away from the cabins with rubber 12 ga ammo. I'm not sure the non aggression was because the bears were used to seeing people walking the trails regularly or the bears werent aggressive to begin with, but I'd imagine it was the first option.
I dont want to carry a big honking round like the .44, im just not interested for many reasons, if I was going to go that route I might as well get a 12 ga with sabot rounds or a high powered rifle, not in my budget or interested right now. I have walked most of this wood throughout my life and have never even encountered a bear of any kind directly, usually prints or scrapings on trees, so I do know they are around. I dont want a bear specific revolver, I just want something much more likely to get the job done than my 1911 or a .22 LR, that I can use for other types of shooting as well. I am also limiting myself to the Vaquero because I recently got a Birdshead .45 acp and I want the same gun with a larger round (and also the plow handle grip).

 

All I have to offer:

I've read two articles on this subject both on using 357 on bear.

The high point or conclusion of both was to use a hard cast lead and go for penetration but anyway you slice it, it wasn't a definite show stopper. The hard cast lead was just your best choice.

JHP just won't go deep enough to hit anything vital and wasn't even a starter..

 

I'm very interested in this thread. Looking forward to more information. I've been considering the same options.

 

For the same reasons or for general wooded defense?

 

The .357 magnum, with the right ammo (high power hard cast lead or solid copper XTP bullets) is enough gun for black bear. If you are just planning on Arkansas, then the .357 (with the right ammo) will do the job. However, the .45 Colt is still a bigger caliber and can be loaded hot enough to handle black bears even better than the .357 and, yes, in a New Vaquero sized frame gun. If you don't reload, Buffalo Bore makes what they call "standard pressure heavy .45 Colt" ammo. Basically it's loaded to close to max but still be within the SAAMI limits. It's safe in all New Vaquero frame guns that are in good condition.

If you want to shoot "over SAAMI" levels (commonly known as Ruger Only) the large frame Vaquero and NM Blackhawk are necessary but the SAAMI limits are still pretty strong. Many people think the New Vaquero size guns are limited to anemic "cowboy action" loads but that is far, far from the truth. The New Vaquero is designed to handle "tier II" pressures, which is far more powerful than most people think. The Buffalo Bore "standard pressure heavy" loads are much better for black bear than .357 magnum so if you are looking for a "which is best", the .45 Colt wins hands down. However, like I said, the .357 magnum, with the right ammo, is plenty of gun for black bear.

Personally I'm less concerned with what will work and more concerned with what works best. If you are in a position where it's you or the bear, you'll want the most power you can handle. You likely will only get one, possibly two shots, so I want whatever has the most chance of stopping the bear in one shot but still be controllable enough to get a fast second shot off on target if necessary. A caliber that gives you a really powerful first shot but because of recoil eliminates the chance of a fast accurate second shot makes no sense to me but everyone is different.

Long story short, either caliber out of a New Vaquero, with the right ammo, is capable of stopping black bear. The New Vaquero is not a weak gun and while not capable of handling "tier III/Ruger Only" ammunition, it is still capable of handling very powerful .45 Colt loads within the tier II limits. Choose whichever you want but keep in mind, in the New Vaquero, regardless of caliber, your ammo choice will make all the difference. You want hard cast lead or deep penetrating solid copper XTP style bullets pushed as fast as possible.

 

Ya we don't see many bear here in Alaska and thats why many carry a 357 loaded hot or a 10mm. Some how when the 357 was the stoutest pistol you could buy they did good service on bears ,brown or black. Like I said not many bears here so my info on what works is probably off. Also like I stated the Vaquero would not be first choice for hot loads.

 

I'm not trying to start a fight, but I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not, I thought Alaska was full of bears?

 

I guess he can't find one of the rare laminated wood and he must use a walnut. " Hickok45, 2013 because the quality tends to fan such as wave

 

Btw jim, my post in jest wasn't aimed at you, fishing guides from Oregon are just an easy target

SE AK has probably more bears than southcentral. Prince of Wales island is known for blacks, and Admiralty island has more browns per square mile than anywhere on earth.

 

No worries! Even though I'm living in Oregon, I'm not a fishing guide. And I concur that a lot of the "outdoorsmen" who come up from the lower 48 had over-inflated opinions of their expertise.

I think the point that a lot of people have been making in this thread is that defending yourself from an angry bear isn't easy. There is no handgun on the planet that will reliably give you a "one-shot stop" on a charging bear; about the smallest caliber that will do that is a 25X137 mm (M242 Bushmaster), and that's not a "handgun" in any sense of the word. However, I'm not saying that you should just give up and carry "bear spray" (which has been repeatedly shown to be ineffective against angry bears).

Momentum is what carries a bullet into the "kill zone" and that is a factor of bullet weight and the square of the velocity. But momentum alone doesn't kill an angry bear - you have to hit something so vital that you shut it down. It can take several minutes for a bear to become unconscious from even massive bleeding, and that's time enough for the bear to do the same to you. Even a shot that tears open the heart gives the bear several seconds to tear you to shreds before it dies.


Jim

 

I guess I'll be serious here, and give some info for what it's worth. Take it for what you paid for it. I've never shot a charging bear with a handgun. I've taken a Black with a .308, and was the backup shot on a Brown with a 35 Whelen. I've been bluff charged by a brown once, and scared several blacks away from me in the course of my day to day activities.

First thing to avoid a bad encounter with a bear, is understanding their behavior. (actually, the most foolproof way to avoid a bear is to have a bear tag, and it be in season)

1st- Brown Bears:

They VERY rarely see humans as food- only one case I can think of. They avoid humans if they know we are around. The two most common causes of Brown bear attacks are surprising the bear while it is close, and it feels threatened, and a sow protecting her cubs. When in brown bear country, pay attention to the wind, and make noise. I probably look silly, but I talk, whistle, or sing when walking alone where I know brown bears to be. Occasionally, I hear rustling running away from me. I keep my head on a swivel, and stop often to listen. I've seen cubs before, they make noise. I slowly backed up, and went back the way I came.

When attacked by a Brown bear, they are usually only attacking because they feel threatened. Don't scream, curl up in the fetal position, and don't fight back. They will eventually leave (my former Commanding Officer was attacked by a brown while checking his trap line 2 years ago- he did exactly this, and ended up mauled, but alive).

2nd- Black bears:

Black bears are usually very skittish, and will run at the sign of a human (unless they are acclimated to humans). They are, however, curious. They are known to follow hikers down the trail following the scent. Due to this, encounters may be more likely. They tend not to be as protective of their space as Brown bears. However, if a Black Bear is attacking you, he likely sees you as food. Fight back in any way possible (poke eyes, punch snout, etc). A black is less likely to give up until you are bear feces.


Killing them:

Weight of an animal means nothing. An 800 lb moose is very easy to kill. A 100 lb wolverine is not.

A brown bear has very thick fur and skin. Especially when wet, Brown bear fur can slow a bullet down a lot. When choosing a weapon to shoot a brown bear (in defense), you must choose a cartridge that can reach the central nervous system. A bear with a broken shoulder will still kill you. A bear with an exploded heart will still kill you- even if it dies shortly afterwords. Bears have a slow metabolism, and can still function after their lungs and heart stop working for a few minutes. Plenty long enough to still kill you.

Momentum is what reaches the CNS of a bear. Not energy. A heavy for caliber, wide meplat (flat nose) hard cast lead penetrates the deepest and straightest. Since you are aiming for the brain or spinal cord, accuracy is a must. Choose the biggest gun that you can hit a basketball bouncing at you at 35 mph. That caliber is different for all people. For me, I carry a 4" Redhawk in 45 Colt, loaded with 320 gr LFN cast going 1200 fps. This is a tier 3 handload. Some people are more competent with 10mm Glock 20's and some with 454 Casull or bigger.

A Black bear is a relatively thin skinned animal. It does not take as much momentum to reach the CNS of a Black bear. If you feel comfortable shooting a deer with it, it's probably ok for a black bear.

First and foremost is your ability to hit where you are aiming, and to have ready access to your weapon. If it is more then 1-2 seconds from going bang, you might as well not have it. Most bear encounters are that fast.

 

Interesting post. Obviously Not worried about Brown an Grizzly bears. Have come across many Black Bears in South East where I hunt the swamps. However they have never been a concern for me. Never saw one that did not Bolt when come upon. Where I live we can only use Shotguns with buck shot. When scouting, I only carry a small 9mm. Not for bears, but for any two legged nutcases I might run into that far out.

What I really liked was your analogy of shooting a Charging Bear like trying to shoot a basket ball coming at you at 35mph. And from a short distance.
I consider myself a fair shot, but a big bore revolver with heavy recoil would most likely not work for me. Not that good. And you did not mention the immense adrenaline rush that would seem to take place.

So, I personally would opt for Bear Spray. Or would consider a short barrel semi-auto shotgun with Buckshot. Short barrel of all the walking and toting that I would be doing. The only other alternative for big bears would be to train like crazy each week with a big bore revolver. Definitely a special skill set from what I am use to. It would be like closing your eyes and hoping you hit the small charging target area. And it would seem, you would only have one chance to do this perfectly. Not good odds.
Thanks for the interesting post.

 

Studies show that youre better off with bear spray.

 

Wouldn't the .357 even with it's lighter weight penetrate further than a big slower moving .45 LC, both with standard loadings.
I know you guys think I'm "just not listening toy you", but that's not true at all. The truth is I am already getting this gun, the caliber is the only thing that's still up in the air here. This will be my most powerful handgun in my collection so far, and I don't have the finances to go buy multiple firearms and many different types of ammo, nor do I have the finances for reloading right now. I want something that is fun to shoot, great for self defense, and a caliber (one of the two) that can handle this "bear" job better than the other. I'm not looking for an end all caliber just one that has versatility.

Most of our bears are blacks, I'm really more likely to come across a hog than a bear, or crazy people than either of those other two. Like I said, I've been walking these woods my whole life and never crossed a bear, most of the time when I was much younger and only armed with a .22 once I was old enough to be trusted alone with one, before that I had a pocket knife and a stick. There are many people who live north of me by 100 miles in much heavier bear country than here, who have lived there for 40 years and besides friends stories, they don't believe there are really bears here because they have never seen one themselves. I'm not that oblivious dispite my usual "show me or your making it up" attitude to begin with.

One day I will probably get a "Bear Gun" strictly for protection, right now I'm looking for a do all within the parameters I described in my first post. My next gun may well be a leaver action in a matching caliber. After that I have four other handguns that will take me probably two years to acquire, then I can focus on a bigger gun even though it will probably spend 99% of it's life in the safe.

 

My first post in this thread stands. If you do not reload, the 357 is more practical. It will probably get shot more, as ammo is more plentiful and in the appropriate loading for your chosen Vaquero.

As far as weight and penetration, I've never tested heavy 45 Colt (standard pressure) vs 357. The concept of momentum is that a freight train moving 5 mph will go farther through a barrier than a motorcycle going 180 mph, even if the math says the motorcycle has more energy.

 

Why not just buy the most powerful Vaquero made, an original model in .44 Magnum and pray you get off a good shot or two. Your not shooting for steaks, your shooting for your life.

 

Hitting the target in the center of the ten ring is the most important part. Next would be quality of bullet to punch deep holes and then the cartridge you can handle best to send the bullet on its way. My wife shoots a S&W 19 with a 6" barrel nuts on with the 180 Buffalo Bore and I'm not worried about her hunting without me by her side,her rifle is also 357 max down to 38spec. As I age I'm moving backward in caliber and I'm back to 44mag now and only hunt with revolvers. If the Vaquero can use the blackhawk type max ammo I would go with the 45 which recoil wise is like the 44 mostly. If thats to much to hit center of ten ring go 357. Best first shots in my experience are through both shoulders or spine. I consider a charging bear one still coming at twenty five yards or starts from that distance,everything else is watch and see. My main back pocket walk in the woods gun is a charter arms 44spec and feel fine with it but I don't us it to hunt bears on purpose. The heavier for caliber bullet you can shoot the better off you are,momentum is your friend.

 

Ok I have briefly browsed thru this thread now a ? For the OP arenyou planning on just hiking around your neck of the woods I think younsaid Arksnsas? If so the .357 magnum is all that you will need. Now I have the larger framed Ruger Vaquero Bisley .357 with a 5.5 barrel I really love this gun I like this size much more then the smaller New Vaquero. Why is it you have to get a Vaquero? Reason I ask is a Ruger Super Blackhawk in .357 will have the larger stronger frame. I mention the Super Blackhawk over the Vaquero because of the rudimentary simple sights on a Vaquero. If you want a hunting gun is my reasoning the SBH has better sights. But maybe you are good with the fixed sights on a Vaquero. If you don't mind using a FFL gun dealer I know right now where there is a gun just like mine comes complete with the Ruger Box. It's a Ruger Vaquero Bisley it looks virtually new same barrel length as my gun. Send me a PM & I can direct you to where the gun is I can get you a phone # I have shot some very very stout .357 magnum loads thru my gun. It handles these loads with ease the Bisley Grip tames down the recoil. But some guys like it & some don't another good option is a Ruger Bisley Super Blackhawk Hunter model that comes it .357 & .44 magnum. Good Luck!

 

Yes I'm generally talking hiking or while doing other types of hunting (hunting is rare for me) in Arkansas.
I don't really want adjustable sights on this one, I'm looking to get fixed sights on a traditional style SA cowboy gun is what I'm looking for now. If I went ask sights I would go double action and likely a S&W 686. I want to buy new and I've already got my eye on a couple of SS New Vaqueros which I will be installing a new Montado hammer to match my Birdshead. Thank you for the offer though. I must say this won't be my last Ruger, or SA, and I do want a blackhawk/SBH/SRH in the future, so all is not lost.

Ruger Stainless New Vaquero .357 4.62" barrel $589

 

Good point about the Train v.s. Motorcycle. Another reason I thought the .357 might have more punch was because of stories of why the .357 came about. Back in the early 1900's cops used to carry .38's which had trouble penetrating heavy steel and stopping cars, the .357 mag was great at not only going through car bodies to hit passengers, but they were also capable of piercing the engine blocks. The .357 was issued all the way up until modern semi autos came about, some departments still used them and very few still do, but some. Now that has no bearing on the .45 LC, but does show that the .357 mag was capable of great penetration. Going back to the train vs motorcycle, knockdown power is great, but if you can't make it to any vitals then I dont know if it will do much good, so I was thinking penetration would be important in this scenario. If you are shooting at the face as in the nose, mouth, eyes (most likely in a full charge) then I doubt caliber will matter much although the .45 LC would probably do more soft tissue damage.

From what all but a few of you are saying, it's a crap shoot unless I go with a grizzly gun, so I may as well just pick one and hope for the best, at least it's not my 9mm right. I sincerely appreciate all of your time and concern with this delimma!

So let's say for argument that I decided to go with .357 mag or even the .45 LC, how do I know which loads are to hot from the factory to be shot out of the New Vaquero? Is it listed in the manual as well on a new box of ammo? last thing I want to do is blow a cylinder or worse! Please advise.

 

If a factory load generates higher than standard ("Ruger only") pressures, it will say so and it will say so very clearly. If you go to Buffalo Bore's site and look around you will find some heavy loads and their recommendations for what firearms will work.

I believe but am not 100% sure that the 357 Magnum going through an engine block is an urban legend. The 357 was indeed developed to increase penetration, but it was through things like car doors which were a pretty heavy gauge steel at the time.

Handguns for Protection in the Field