For what it's worth I shoot a Hornady 124gr FMJ and 4.4grs of HP-38.
1.140 OAL.

That load works fine in all my 9mm pistols. Very accurate.

 

I wonder if the OAL has something to do with it? I went by Hogdon's OAL of 1.150

 

You chronographed those velocities?

 

Hodgdon's website lists 4.8grs of HP38/231 as the maximum for a Sierra 125gr FMJ. That's with a OAL of 1.090.
Set your sights on pistol reloading data | Hodgdon Reloading

I don't have a chronograph, but I don't think my 4.4grs with a OAL of 1.140 is any where near a max load.

 

I'm using X-treme bullets which are not FMJ but rather plated.

That being said maybe I used the incorrect load data. I used the load data for the 124 GR. BERB HBRN TP as I was going by bullet weight. I did notice that the 125 GR. SIE FMJ does use a higher load.

So now I'm a bit confused regrading the bullet type and which load data I should be using. Could I use the load data for the Sierra 125gr FMJ for my 124 grain x-treme copper plated bullets?

 

HP-38 / W-231 is a poor choice for 9mm. Yes, it will work in most pistols but it is much faster burning than optimum. The best powders for a 9mm (all bullet weights) are Power Pistol, Universal, or Unique. They are mid-burn rate powders .... exactly what a 9mm cartridge was designed to use. Powders in the mid-burn rate take longer to burn ... giving the slide enough time for full travel while staying well under max chamber pressure. Fast burning powders run at much higher chamber pressures and burn up before the slide has a chance to move fully to the rear.

 

+1!
I use to use HP-38 & TiteGroup and they worked, but switched to CFE Pistol & my results improved dramatically. With the 124 gr. Berrys plated I use, it delivers the best accuracy of the 5 powders I have tested, with Universal & Unique (Universal, TiteGroup, HP-38, Unique & CFE Pistol)

 

I have no problems with it. Slightly different bullet though. 124 gr LRN. Mixed brass. Federal primers. 1.125 OAL. Have used from 4.1 to 4.4 gr HP38 with no issues in my LC9 and my LC9S.

 

moakes58, Thanks for reminding me about CFE. It is a fairly new powder and is also in the medium burn rate category .... an excellent choice for 9mm ammo.

 

I love CFE. I wish I could get a five pound bottle of it. But Here it's nowhere to be found.

 

My 2 cents. I love the CFE Pistol and a similar but different powder Winchester AutoComp. They both are mid-burn powders and designed just for auto such as 9 mm and 40 S&W.
I acquired some HP-38 and did some loads with it. The 4.0 grains is the lightest recoiling load I have loaded in 9 mm. It was not accurate. I raised the load to 4.4 grain which was still a light recoiling load, but more accurate than 4.0.

Now thanks to this thread I understand a little more about why.

I have now tried some Accurate #7 and tried some loads with it in 9 mm. It appeared very accurate in a mid load. Is it too slow for a good 9 or 40 powder load?

 

You bring up a good point as others did that HP-38 may just not be a good powder for 9mm. If I could get my hands on some CFE I would love to try it on 9mm. CFE worked very well for my 45 ACP and 38 Special loads (fired through a GP100).

 

I don't quite know what to think here. I started reloading a few months ago and W231/hp-38 was the first powder I could find out of the ones I had decided to try if I could find. I was basing my choices on forum posts I had read on this and another reloading forum. At the moment I really don't remember which one touted 231 more highly, but it was highly recommended.
Anyway, I used it and it works very well-shoots fine in the two 9mm guns I have and is accurate. I have since tried CFE-pistol and BE-86. They both work well too.
FWIW, my specs are: mixed brass, col-~1.133, RMR hard core match RN 124 gr bullet. Loads are:w231,4.2 gr--CFE-pistol, 5.1 gr--BE-86, 4.7gr.

 

Don't get us wrong, HP-38/W231 works for light loads in a lot of calibers and a lot of people use it. When I got back into reloading after a 10 year break, I used it also & developed loads for .380 & .45 acp, as well as 9mm. There are just powders that are better for this or that application in my pistols.

With the difficulty the last few years finding reloading components, I was moving toward using Hodgdon's Universal for my 3 handgun calibers & then after 7/2013, I did not see Universal for 2 years, due to a problem where it is made in Australia. Along came CFE Pistol & I could buy it, so I got 1 pound, tested it, and was pleased, and have since stocked up with enough of it to last me 5,000 reloads. I have a few open containers to use up of HP-38 & Universal, and then I will be down to CFE Pistol & Titegroup, with Unique as an emergency backup powder. I did notice Cabela's had Universal in stock, but I did not order any.
You have a lot of choices in reloading & it would be nice if they were always available, but I learned it's important to keep a reloading log with data & test results. I know one thing, when the next crisis/shortage hits (or the next election) I will have a 3 year supply on hand to weather it.

 

Has anyone used the CFE Pistol in a 550B Dillon?
How well does it meter?

 

It meters just fine. You can't go wrong with CFE Pistol.

 

Just some "powder" ramblings. First, most people get confused by powder burn rates .... thinking fast burning powders produce fast velocities and slow burning powders produce slow velocities.

It's actually just the opposite .... a fast burning powder only takes 1/2" of bullet travel to totally burn up so the bullet literally coasts out of the muzzle at a slow velocity. In order to get higher velocities out of fast burning powder, you have to increase the powder charge to potentially extreme chamber pressures. Fast burning powders are well suited for low velocity target loads in revolvers.

Medium burn rate powders take a couple inches of bullet travel to totally burn up, which increases velocity considerably. Mid-burn rate powders are excellent for semi-autos because they need a longer pressure pulse to operate the slide while developing higher velocity at a lower chamber pressure. Medium burn rate powders are also well suited in mid-range revolver loads ... not light target loads, not magnum loads ... something in between.

Slow burning powders can take as much as 15" of bullet travel to totally burn up. These powders are used in magnum revolver loads because they continue to push a bullet faster and faster until it finally leaves the muzzle.

So .... faster burning powder means slower muzzle velocity and slower burning powder means faster velocities, leaving medium burn rate powders for medium velocities in the 800~1000 fps range. I'm a "text book" reloader ... always using the optimum burn rate for a specific load. By selecting the proper burn rate, you can maintain lower chamber pressures yet achieve higher velocities, which also extends the life of any gun. That said, there are situations with lead bullet loads in revolvers where you actually need higher pressure to force bullets to obturate (bump up in diameter from chamber pressure). With several powder manufacturers making powder ... there are usually several powders that have the optimum burn rate for your application.

About 5 years ago, I wrote a short article and posted it in the Forum Library, titled "The Mysteries of Smokeless Gunpowder". This article may help you understand some of the properties of gunpowder and may help you select the optimum powder for your application. Here's a link: http://rugerforum.net/library/29181-mysteries-smokeless-gunpowder.html

moakes58, Yes, I have tried CFE and to answer ozo's question .... it metered just fine in my Dillon RL550B. I have nothing bad to say about CFE .... except it's very hard to find in my area. I went through a pound of CFE .... used it in 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP .... all with excellent results. That said, my "go to" medium burn rate powder is Power Pistol, mainly because it has such a wide linear pressure range .... meaning it produces great results in a wider spectrum of loads. Good ol' Unique also works great in semi-auto cartridges but with a more narrow pressure range.

 

Excellent info. I guess I have been stocking up on the "wrong" powders but Titegroup and HP-38 are the only powders I can find. A freind of mine gave me a pound of CFE Pistol powder and it really is very nice powder. Unfortunately, CFE Pistol is impossible to find in my area.

 

Thanks for posting your thoughts Iowegan, they are always valued & appreciated!
It's funny to me how some powders are available in certain areas & not others.

I have had my best luck finding Alliant powders at BassPro & Hodgdon powders at Cabela's put I have never seen Power Pistol on the shelf here.
I will have to pick up a pound.

 

Thanks for that link Iowegan, I've read part of it so far and learned a lot already.

 

Excellent article Iowegan. I've been reloading for about 5 years now but your article confirmed and significantly expanded what I have already learned.

 

I've been running 4.1 gr of 231 under my 124 gr lead truncated cone bullets now for 15 years in competition with nary a problem. I suspect you may have under charged your cartridges.

I would move to Universal or Unique with a nod to Universal only because it flows much better and more consistantly than Unique out of most powder measures.

With the powder shortage that may not be an option. If that is the case bump up your charge to 4.1 to 4.2 gr and see how the gun functions. Even running the maximum charge of 4.4 gr is not going to destroy your gun and with the 9MM case a double charge is not going to happen.

Take Care

Bob

 

Just because it came up here, Precision Reloading has 8lb. jugs of CFE Pistol on there website right now

Here is a link:

https://www.precisionreloading.com/cart.php#!pp=60&l=PDH&i=CFEPIS8

 

rojas both powders you mention work fine in 9MM if all you are doing is punching paper. I have used both over the years and HP38/231 for the past 10 years for IDPA without incident. I do shoot mostly lead truncated cone bullets but certainly have consumed copious amounts of FMJ along the way. Until the powder shortage settles down we are all victims of shooting what we can find.

Take Care

Bob

 

When I use W231 (aka: HP38) powder in the 9mm, I've gotten the best results from a max charge for the bullet weight (115-124 gr). I have used AA #7 and Herco and gotten better velocities than W231, with very good accuracy to boot. I have some Power Pistol to try with 230 gr bullets in my .45 ACP. I expect to get good results when I try PP in my 9mm, too.

 

Just curious, what is your OAL for 124 grn 9mm?

 

I wanted to thank everyone who took the time to reply to my original thread. As a someone who is new to reloading I appreciate all the information that was provided.

And yes, I took the hit and ordered an 8lb jug of CFE Pistol. It hurt like heck to hit the submit button and see the total on my CC but that will last me a very long time as my wife and I are not high volume shooters. We try and go to the range at leas tone a month, weather permitting, and shoot about 50 rounds each.

 

I've run into similar problems with loading 9's. I found that slowing the burn rate down and loading to the upper end of the max loads solved this. Faster powders work great for short revolver barrels, but not so hot for autos.

 

Yup, it seems like the fast burning powders that I have may be reserved for short revolver barrels (if I can ever afford another revolver).

Now this brings up a good point. What is considered a "short barrel? Would a GP100 with a 3" barrel fall into the short barrel category?

 

I do like HP-38 so I just grabbed a 4 lb. jug when I saw it last week because its been pretty hard to find. I've been shooting 9mm with 4.0 gr of HP-38 over a 124 gr plated Xtreme RN at 1.15". Nice light recoiling loads, seems to be accurate enough in my CZ75s. It does fail to cycle my LC9s Pro on occasion. I may bump the charge up a bit just to see what happens.

I also picked up an 8 lb. jug of BE-86 just because I read good things about it. Tried some 5.4 and 5.6 grain loads and they seemed to be a bit hot. I just loaded up some 5.0 and 5.2 grain loads yesterday to check out, but when I got to the range today it was closed. Pheasant day for the boy scouts, whatever that means. It will reopen at 2 but I probably won't get there again. Mowed my lawn instead.

 

rojas, Because HP-38 burns so fast, it is very efficient in snubbie revolvers with a barrel 3" or less. If you look at QuickLOAD, you can see where slower burning powder catches up with HP-38 in barrels about 3" long. After 3", most any medium burn rate powder will surpass HP-38's velocity and at a much lower chamber pressure too.

robertbank, Bullseye exhibits some strange behaviors ... even though it burns faster than HP-38 / W-231 in smaller diameter cases (ie 38 Special) it will easily achieve full velocity of 800~850 fps with a 230gr FMJ in 1911 45 ACPs without exceeding SAAMI pressure standards. It is also a great powder for light target loads in the 700-750 fps range in 45 ACPs or 38 Specials with lead bullets. Back when I was shooting NRA Bullseye matches, a lot of guys used soft lead 200gr SWCs with 3.5gr of Bullseye and a 12 lb recoil spring in their 1911s .... very accurate, very economical, very light recoil, but burns a little dirty. Some 1911s won't cycle with bullseye using the factory recoil spring (16 lb) at 850 fps because it burns so fast there is not enough residual pressure left to operate the slide after the bullet exits the muzzle. A 14 lb recoil spring will fix the problem. Probably the most accurate handgun load in the world is a 38 Special loaded with 3.0 gr of Bullseye and a swaged BHN 10, 148gr HBWC ... it just doesn't get much better than this. This load produces way under the 17.5k psi max pressure for a standard 38 Special. My S&W Mod 14 (6" barrel) will consistently shoot sub-half inch groups at 25 yards with this load ... from a bench rest of course. It only chronographs at 720 fps ... so slow you can actually see the bullet travel downrange

 

Yes I realize that. It depends on what you are doing with the load. I shoot IDPA and need to make 125 PF with 125 gr 9MM bullets. With SD with 10 rds over my F! Chrony running under 10 4.1 gr of 231 works great in the 9MM using my M&P Pro and CZ Shadows.

I would use Bullseye in my 38spl loads but it runs to dirty for my liking. I go with Clays which burns very clean and consistent. 2.8gr of Clays runs a SD of under 10 and makes a PF of 110 which is just over the required 105 needed to for IDPA out of my 4.2" GP-100 using a 160 gr RN bullet. Clays is a very fast powder as well.

I do disagree with you that 231/HP38 is a poor choice for the 9MM. Much depends on what you want to achieve. Not sure what advantage any other powder would provide. 4.1 gr is pretty economical and when it results in consistent accuracy. In 15 years of competition I have never had a failure to feed due to the load not providing enough energy to operate the slide.

Take Care

Bob

 

Well that should not be to hard to do. If you can chrono the factory ammo you want to duplicate. Check a loading manual to find a load that roughly matches where you want to be using a similar bullet and you will or should be close to matching the felt recoil of the factory load. A little work with the chronograph and you will get very close.

Different strokes for different folks. It really only matters to you. Makes no difference what others think, frankly.

Take Care

Bob

 

Bob,

I don't even want to ask but what does a chrono cost for the average shooter cost?

 

Powder Valley has HS-6 in all size containers. HS-6 is a decent powder for 9mm. Maybe you can find someone to split an order.

 

I was able to find a 8lb jug of CFE Pistol Powder and ordered it. Since my wife and I are not high volume shooters (perhaps 50 rounds each per month) the CFE pistol powder will last use for a very long time. What I may do is once the CFE powder arrives is sell my 4LB of Titegroup and 3LB of HP-38 and use that money towards more primers and bullets.

CFE Pistol has worked out very well in my SR1911 and GP100 and since it burns slower than HP-38 and Titegroup it will hopefully do very well in my soon to be home LC9S Pro and her PX4 Compact.

 

robertbank, Keep in mind ... not everyone competes in IDPA and wants a measly PF of 125 .... in fact many 9mm pistols will not function properly at lower muzzle pressures as noted in previous posts. Factory 9mm 124 gr loads make a PF of 138 ....1110 fps with a 124gr bullet. If you use W-231 / HP-38 and go for a factory equivalent .... chamber pressure will be pushing the limits where a slight overcharge will put you above SAAMI max standards. Besides the safety factor .... this powder reaches peak pressure in a mere .2" of bullet travel and is totally burned up at 1.75" of bullet travel. With a 5" barrel, pressure will drop to 5k psi at the muzzle. With Power Pistol (6gr, 1115 fps with a 125gr bullet factory equivalent load), chamber pressure is initially 8k psi lower, but is 5k psi higher at the muzzle ... leaving a lot more pressure to operate the slide. I don't think there is enough space in a 9mm case to overcharge it with Power Pistol.

As you noted "Much depends on what you want to achieve."

 

Sir with a great deal of respect some of what you post makes little sense. For all your stats and such the fact is I have yet to see and IPSC or IDPA shooter have his slide fail to function at 130ish PF using plated, FMJ or Lead bullets. Even Glocks with their heavy slide function at those values. Too, if it was a problem then a lighter recoil spring solves. it. What 9MM pistols do you know of that won't function at around 26000CUP? Many? Come on now. Winchester 147gr FNJ only ran at 139 over my Chrony and I am running my lead load at 135.

I also shoot IDPA revolver. That sport tested 19 different factory cartridges before settling on a PF of 105. Previous limits of 125 were well into +P ranges. Fast powders such as Bullseye and Clays were great at that level and they are standard Factory level loads. I try to run my loads at 110PF out of my Ruger GP-100. Bullseye was the goto powder for target shooters for years and still performs that roll and it is not just for short barreled guns.

For most applications mid range powders work best in the 9MM but when you shoot competitively instead of worrying about the next Zombie attack there are factors to concern yourself:

1. Cost of powder (Faster powders require less powder to reach PF required)
2. Consistent velocities translates to tighter groups (SD under 10 is an indication of consistent powder efficiency).
3. Close to minimum PF translates into less felt recoil and for most this is a useful result.
4. Practice time is expensive if you shoot a lot. I don't but still go through 500 rounds a week minimum during the spring, summer, fall shooting season.

Lastly, for the past two years, powder shortages. Hillary gets in and we will be back to hoarding again.

Take Care

Bob

 

robertbank, I agree with your post ... except the part about pistols functioning with lighter loads of W-231 / HP 38 or even lighter loads with other powders. I've been in this business for a long time and have test fired hundreds of pistols. It is not unusual for a box stock pistol in any caliber to fail to function with lighter loads ... in fact some 9mms don't even work well with lighter 115gr bullets in standard factory loads. I own a few myself .... a Browning Hi Power and a Walther P-38. My CZ 75s. and my CZ P01 seem to do just fine with light loads. Although most 9mm pistols are delayed blowback operated, there are some brands that are direct blowback. These pistols are very fussy and won't cycle with lighter loads. Hi-Point comes to mind but there are other higher quality brands too. Pistols that won't function with light loads may work fine with lighter recoil springs. Point is ... replacing a recoil spring is beyond the scope of many shooter's capabilities ... not that it is mechanically hard to do, it's just not easy to find reduced power springs for pistols other than 1911s or Glocks.

I think the goal for most pistol owners is .... find a load that is safe, accurate, functions well, and has the desired power .... without modifying the gun. Except for competition shooters ... most pistol owners could care less about power factors .... they usually want more powerful ammo, not less powerful.

Revolvers could care less about light loads .... as long as there is enough powder to propel the bullet past the muzzle, they work just fine. Being an old diehard ... I like Bullseye in revolvers. Yes, I do get a lot of soot but that cleans up easily. I never warmed up to Clays ... no doubt a good powder but I still have what's left of an 8 pounder of Bullseye that I have been working on for many years. At 3gr per load, that's about 18,666 38 Special cartridges. Considering my rate of consumption, I'll be a dead duck long before that 8 pounder is empty.