I will say that trigger weight does not bother me. I shoot my SR1911 officer (4 1/2lb) and P938 (7lb) about the same. I read about how terrible 10/22 triggers were until I got mine and thought it was fantastic. Almost no take-up; clean pull and what I have now measured at a 6lb break. It's so clean I really thought it was much lighter until I got the gauge out. Had to measure it 3 times because I couldn't believe it was heavier than my SR1911 full size (5 3/4lb).

A long pull I don't like. Too much hand movement increases the chance of pulling the shot. I would rather have a heavy trigger than a long light trigger. The Springfield XD typically has a relatively clean, light trigger. I can't abide that long pull. That's the same issue I have with the Beretta.

A clean wall is nice in a hunting rifle. On a defensive firearm, I would rather have the gun fire as soon as I touch the trigger. The best trigger I have ever felt was on my dad's SR45. The first time I shot it, it scared the crap out of me. Good thing I practice good trigger discipline. These guys that call a trigger great with a 1/2" pull up to a 6lb wall and a "clean" break are nuts in my opinion. Mushy triggers can go straight to Hades.

As far as when it matters; precision shooting comes to mind. The longer the range, the better the trigger needs to be. This is true for both target shooting and hunting. Try to hit a deer facing you at 200 yards and you need a clean trigger.

A defensive firearm, on the other hand, benefits from a trigger that is not too light or too short. You don't want a negligent discharge because you got nervous and a finger ended up where it didn't belong. That is one place where I think a mushy heavy Glock trigger shines. For me, I prefer a manual safety. Switching off that safety puts me in mind of where all my fingers are and the state of the gun. Call it a "go" switch if you want. The switch is to make the firearm AND the mind ready.

Take that last point too far and the gun becomes unsafe again. What I mean by that is it is harder to hit where you are aiming with a long heavy pull. I know revolver guys, you can train for it. Remember that every bullet is an opportunity to defend yourself, and every miss is an opportunity for tragedy. One of the reasons I don't like long pulls is a combination of arthritis and some lingering nerve issues from taking statins. I can get the jerks from time to time. The longer, grittier the pull, the more likely and drastic the jerk becomes.

Hopefully, that was enough (but short enough) to meet your dissertation request.

 

A heavy DA trigger pull is hard to master on a light handgun. A mushy trigger pull, like on the old original High Powers is easier to use, but if you shoot a nice crisp trigger the same day, the contrast is vivid. Too light can be an issue from premature sear trip to unsafe. A trigger that doesn't function when needed can get someone killed.

Point being that pull weight is only a small fraction of what's important. Functional reliability and usable enough to place shots where aimed count more. I'll take crisp over light if the above is there.

 

I prefer a good, predictable pull over light.

 

@Nomadic Paladin which is it, light pull or not, for a defensive gun? I think you said both 😉

I shoot them how they come. No fiddling. On a defensive weapon I want a reasonably long trigger pull and 5lbs+\-. When you are stressed out and something startles you, your hand muscles can easily involuntarily contract. POW, oops.

 

What I said that might be interpreted as both is this.
A carry gun should not have too light OR too heavy of a trigger pull. Too light brings the scenario you mentioned into play. Too heavy will impact your ability to hit your target. Too heavy is different for different people. There are comments here that seem to indicate they can hit a bullseye at 50 yards with a 25lb trigger. If you can, good. Most people can't. Rather than expect everyone to be a master marksman, I choose the middle ground.

And I am with you. I have never adjusted or replaced any trigger. I see the benefit. I just believe the trigger was made the way it was for a reason. If I don't like a trigger on a gun, I buy a different gun. The only guns I own with less than a 5lb trigger are the SR1911 officer (4 3/4) and my Weatherby .308 (3lb).

 

I never understood it either.
Will ruffle humphenpuffers feathers....
But I have ALWAYS heard "bad trigger" from bad shots.
I consider myself a lucky shot. Not a good shot.
Single action I shoot better than I do double action.
Past that disinction, and the impetus it implies, I have no earthly idea why people make such a big deal.

( by "shoot better" i mean score wise on a traditional handgun target @25 yards on timed drills)

 

I’ve never felt any need to reduce trigger pull weight on a handgun. If I really don’t like the trigger characteristics of a particular piece, I don’t buy it. Assuming there’s nothing wrong with a gun, they often are what they are for a good reason. Personally, I think a lot of people chase trigger pulls because it gets mentioned so much in online forums. There are folks who appear to believe every handgun made today leaves the factory “needing” trigger work.

I understand that there are some avid shooters out there who know what they like based on design and experience, and how to achieve it. There are also others who strive for similar trigger characteristics in every firearm they own, which I’m not convinced is always a good idea.

Having said all of that, and I’m sure I’ve mentioned this before, I also think some people chase trigger pull when what they might get more benefit from are modifications that tailor trigger reach to their hand better.

 

If I am shooting slow for accuracy, I do not want creep. I want a crisp break.

If just plinking, yes, what difference does anything make.

The heavier the trigger, the greater probability of pulling off target.

 

I used to be the same as Naja and never really gave the trigger pull differences a second thought. Then on RimfireCentral, I went down the rabbit hole to build a 10/22 rifle that could match a bolt gun in accuracy. And what I learned is that a creepy heavy 7lb trigger makes shooting 1/8th inch groups at 25 yards virtually impossible. You have to understand that for super accuracy, even your heartbeat has to be factored in to time the shot correctly along with a host of other things that absolutely have to be repeated time and time again exactly the same for each shot.

I decided that the trigger is an easy step in that long long repeatability scenario, so why not eliminate it as a factor? The trigger is a tool that can be made to eliminate it's weaknesses & errors. The human body and brain are the true weak spots and take years to train to eliminate errors....but drop in a Match trigger and the journey to accuracy just took a huge leap. It is by no means a fix all, but I have to say, after learning how to stone and file the stock hammers of the 10/22 from heavy and creepy to 3lb-ish and a clean break....my accuracy got better, my confidence elevated and I could focus on tougher factors like cheek weld, breathing, wind, ammo, grip....etc.

I am not a trigger snob, but now all it takes is one shot on any firearm and I instantly can notice a crappy trigger, or a great one. I make sure that when teaching the G-kids to shoot that they have a decent trigger. The reason is, if they cannot be accurate they lose interest quicker, so I try not to handicap them in any way.

Hope all that makes sense, and I know not everyone here shoots paper for really tight groups, but if you do, I think the process makes you a better overall shooter & there is certainly no harm in that.

 

I think it all depends on what you're trying to do ... try shooting Bullseye with your 8# trigger. That's hitting a 50 cent piece at 50 yards with one hand. Or the old International Silhouette game ... trying to hit something the size of a small dog at 200 meters ... off hand.

No, shooting at man size USPSA "A" zone (the size of a dinner plate) targets with your 1911 and 5# trigger doesn't make as much of a difference.

I like a crisp, light trigger in the 2.5 to 3.5 range on all my "target / match" grade guns. My EDC, 642, is just how it came out of the box, it's DAO and I'm happy with the trigger pull on it for it's intended purpose,

I shot competition for many years and learned that the lighter the trigger pull the easier it is to make the gun go off without moving the sights. A heavy trigger requires a harder, heavier pull with the trigger finger and that can and will cause more movement.

 

I think it is ironic that this subject is being discussed in a Ruger forum. From the very first Ruger I owned in the 1950s until the last one I bought three years ago for the most part I have been very impressed with Ruger quality - except for the triggers.

Years ago, an interesting individual, revealed during a poker game that Ruger deliberately built their guns with terrible triggers to avoid getting sued over accidental shootings. The individual postulated that many shooters would either themselves, or through a gunsmith, pay to have the triggers "fixed" and that would relieve Ruger of any responsibility.

He must have been right. At one time, I owned more Ruger than other brands, and all of my cowboy mounted handguns were highly modified Rugers. When I bought a Ruger, it almost always went to a gunsmith before I actually used it. The fact that gunsmiths like Chief AJ spent their entire efforts on 10/22s with only a few special exceptions, or that Badlands Bill built a national reputation on his work on Ruger single actions is evidence of what I post.

At least I won a chunk of his money in that and other poker games. It helped to pay for all the trigger work I had done.

 

Years ago, an interesting individual, revealed during a poker game that Ruger deliberately built their guns with terrible triggers to avoid getting sued over accidental shootings.

Pretty much the case.
You can buy spring kits for minimal cost. You can polish the contact surfaces, (polish as in smooth and shiny). Most of the time that is all you need to have a decent trigger.
I have firearms I would not even consider handing to a new shooter. (I never hand any gun to an obvious idiot). Trigger discipline is a practiced art. You don't get it watching movies or reading magazines. Until keeping your finger off the trigger until you need to take a shot is natural, a heavier trigger pull is a plus. A crisp 5lb-7lb trigger, no grit or bumps, is easy to manage. A 2lb trigger is for shooting in a carefully managed environment.
Triggers, it depends on what you are doing, plus the experience to use the firearm properly.

I have purchased several new Ruger rifles and handguns recently. They are quite a lot better than triggers in the past, but they are heavy. NP, lighter trigger springs took care of all of the issues I had. I did flush all of the internals with a dose of gun scrubber and, a shot of Remoil with Teflon, the excess blown out with a can of air, and of to the range. Triggers good, and still safe. There's no saving the stupid and careless, but it does keep lawyers in business.

 

Lots of good little treatises on this thread already.
I will add my (more than) two cents:

1. You have to acknowledge that internet fora attract OCD individuals.
This is true on every forum I have visited, including guitar fora, car fora, poetry fora
and this one as well as Rimfire Central. What you read on a forum like this one
is not reflective of the general population of shooters (or guitar pickers or Haiku afficionadoes
or what). Most of the "regular guys" don't hang out on internet fora.
Most of the "regular guys" don't bother to modify their weapons, IMHO.
I came here to learn things, and when I read posts by truly obsessive marksmen
or gun collectors or competition addicts, I often shake my head like, "Really?" but I might
take some notes as well.

2. Some of the members who do hang out on this forum and RFC are serious competitors
who shoot matches often. Personally, I know nothing of this world. I don't know about
shooting competitively, and I don't know what many of the acronyms that are slung about
might mean, and I don't know how much the prize purses in these competitions might be
(if anything). Like, how much do you get if you win? The world wonders. (no it doesn't)
But competition inspires OCD, and OCD drives a man to polish his trigger parts until he
measures his trigger pull in ounces. To me, this sounds actually insane. I've said so,
and got some pretty brusque responses, but nothing too hostile. No death threats *whew!...

3. Some of the questions that occur to me are these:
•Is there a nationally accepted minimum pull weight that is considered safe?
•Do competitions have rules about it? (they should IMHO)...
•Does the NRA provide guidelines or leadership on this issue?
•WHAT is considered an unsafe trigger, hah? I'd like to know.
•I never served in the military, but the Army and Marine Corps would certainly have clear
and strict rules about minimum trigger pull weight. Company Armorers would know.
•What do they say at Camp Perry? Do they disqualify violators?
•What do they teach at gunsmith school? Many of the posts I read concerning the making
of "hair triggers" never mention professional gunsmiths. What would a professional gunsmith
say to a prospective customer who wanted him to alter a trigger pull to under 1#?

4. I don't know the answers to these questions, but I'd like to. I have no interest in
a weapon with a hair trigger... Is there a definition of "Hair Trigger?"
I look at such things with deep suspicion. I see them as accidents waiting for a
place to happen. Guys who have done this to guns in their
possession say that as long as safety rules are followed, the weapon is safe.
Maybe so, but what happens when you get old and sick and your grandchildren
start getting your guns out and taking them somewhere shooting...
This forum and RFC even have an acronym for it: UID=Unintended Discharge
Just the thought of that gives me the creeps.

5. That said, I confess to buying a BX trigger for my Ruger 1022. ~2 3/4#
I've also bought M-Carbo spring kits for a couple of other rifles to make their
trigger pull a little lighter, more in the 3 1/2-4# range. And I took my old 1975 Mini-14
to my local gunsmith and asked him to "do a trigger job" on it. He replied that
the M-14 family of military style triggers could only be adjusted down to about
4 1/2#... I told him that was fine with me, (and it is). The old rifle has what I think
is a very fine trigger, smooth and crisp... which is what I wanted.
Do AR-15 guys routinely adjust their triggers down to sub 1# pull weight?

Lots of questions I'd like to know the answers to... for the sake of our children's
children.

 

Yeah I agree with you. Never understood the issue. And that goes same for rifles.

I do like the newer Python trigger which is called "linear leaf spring" - it's very nice. And the newer Anaconda features the same type of action.

 

Reminds me of Walter Brennan telling Dean Martin not to file the trigger light on his Colt Peace Maker "cuz he don't wanna shoot hisself!"
Said without his teeth, naturally for comedic effect :⁠-⁠)

 

I’ve owned so many different firearms that I never gave triggers much thought. Some were great, some were okay, some were a little rough. They all got the job done and I’ve been able to be a pretty consistent good shot regardless of the triggers. I will say that a light crisp trigger is helpful for longer bullseye disciplines. I’ve never replaced a trigger nor had any trigger work done on any firearm I’ve owned. I’ve never changed springs nor polished any parts. I shoot them as is and, so far, I still hit what I’m aiming at.

Some folks lose their minds over triggers. Like I said, I can see it on a dedicated longer distance bullseye firearm but I don’t see the need or desirability for a defensive pistol. If and when that bad day comes the overwhelming majority of us will be yanking on the trigger and no amount of training and practice will likely change that.

 

Handguns and shotguns for me are utilitarian. Like Corndog, I clean and leave these alone as factory. Hunting and bench stuff though, well, I'm a tinkerer.

 

I agree with that. When it comes to a hunting rifle, the bedding of barrel to stock and the sights become the overriding factors. Along with position before the shot.

 

All I desire is a SMOOTH trigger.

Whether I get it, or not, is pretty much irrelevant to my shooting.

Disclaimer: as mentioned elsewhere, I do not shoot minute-of-gnat’s-butt at 500 yards.


Okay, corollary to original question:

HOW are you pulling your triggers?

I was taught (and teach) to put the pad of your trigger finger on the trigger, in order to use ALL the joints in the finger to enable a straight-line pull, without applying side pressure that would pull the sights off-target.

The ONLY exception was with double-action defensive revolvers, wherein you put the first joint of the finger on the trigger to get maximum strength to operate the action.

Using the pad (straight-line pull) means all you do is gradually increase pressure (regardless of trigger pull weight) until the bullet-launcher goes BOOM!


Is my life-long emphasis on steady sight picture the reason trigger pull is not such a big factor?

When I teach folks how to get a steady sight picture, they are always surprised by how that front sight settles down.

One student was trying to “time” the sight’s moving figure-8 pattern to the trigger break!

When I got him to observe his basics, he freaked out because “the front sight is only moving to my heartbeat!”

Then, we worked on how to get rid of that and he REALLY freaked out when he put three rounds in the same hole at 15 yards.

The man was in his late 60s and had never had formal training on how to shoot - learning at his daddy’s knee and his own experimentation.


So, this is a long-winded wind-up to asking:

Why do people focus on trigger pull, instead of how to hold the front sight steady?

 

Jump onto a music forum: no shortage of fetishes there! Full of folks geeking out over the most minute of details as if that one mod, this one I swear, will make it play better.

Um, no. The guitar doesn’t play. You play the guit! It’s easy to spot the guys who are session players or gig live from the bedroom rock gods. The former work on the music; the latter are stressing over that infinitesimal detail that will “make the difference.”

We all know some triggers are better than others, but we buy guns for the “whole” it brings! The aesthetic, feel in the hand, features that appeal to you; and you bought it and never even shot it!!! That in itself ought to tell you it’s not only about the trigger.

Learn how to shoot well. Learn how to play well. Do the hard part and learn. The better you learn your job, the more you realize those differences that you thought mattered a lot shrink. Because you’re a better shooter or musician no longer distracted by the tool and whatever it’s deficiencies.

It’s myopic, really, to focus on one facet and overplay its importance. But we do. BTDT. So I accept the gun (or guitar) for what it is or I would NOT have bought it! Maybe a small mod for looks or comfort, but I simply ain’t gonna fuss over it ot it’s just the wrong item I should never have purchased. So yeah, get a trigger bar, or shoe, or polish…it’s all good. But go farther down that rabbit hole and you’re simply reinforcing why you should never have gotten that to begin with.

All IMO, of course. And that’s my dissertation.

Edward

 

And, it is spot on for firearms and music, as far as I am concerned.

 

you guys know I'm OCD. Too LATE for this party. Imma gonna just "sit 'n watch." 🍿 😎

 

Show me a GOOD musician (or shooter) who does NOT have OCD!

You never get good without paying attention to the details and having the ability to concentrate on the task at hand.

 

I've never been a "trigger snob." I'm a plinker. I shoot paper (and an occasional can or bottle) for fun. I simply want to be able to pull the trigger and have the gun go bang. I don't worry about mushy triggers or tactile resets. I know each gun is different, so each trigger will be different. Striker fired will feel different than hammer fired. DA will feel different than SA. I don't modify triggers, I adapt to the gun. Mine are mostly "budget guns," so I accept with what the manufacturer gives me.

As mentioned by others, my focus is on keeping the gun steady and the front sight from moving. Granted, a light, smooth trigger will make that process much easier, but since I don't shoot competitively, I've learned to make do with what I've got.

Oddly enough, the trigger in my Ruger LCRx is the one and only trigger I've ever had trouble with. Every once in a great while, if I'm shooting fast, I short stroke it, and it does not reset. Sadly, the LCR series trigger is somewhat infamous for this.

 

I don't modify triggers, I adapt to the gun.

I agree. If I exclusively shot only a handful of guns I might consider fooling with the triggers to get some consistency but I shoot so many different firearms that’s not practical or reasonable.

 

ok, .......
since we're talking about triggers here's a short synopsis.
Triggers have 3 basic phases before the Bang.
1- The "take up" <--- Hey, I didn't name this stuff.
2- The "Wall"
3- "Creep"
A standard Glock pistol has @ a 5.5lb trigger. Trouble is it has a LOT of "Creep"
The "take up" is the free-play the trigger has before you feel tension from the trigger spring.
The "Wall," is the stiff no play part when things start to happen. Trigger starts to apply tension to your finger.
The "Creep" is that movement in the trigger AFTER spring tension and when the BANG happens, that's called the "Break."
A lot of ppl don't like triggers with a lot of "creep"
Still others could care less, they just want the "Break,"to snap suddenly not have the trigger roll into the BANG.
Some like no "Take up" A Canik has literally none with a 3lb pull. Scary to use one as a carry pistol!
Trigger preference is like Motor oil,....... everyone has their favorite. 🤷‍♂️
my .02 Back to my popcorn (I would love to hear what Iowegan has to say!)

 

Other than competition requirements, trigger pull weight and travel are highly personal. Of course, safety is also a consideration. You don't want the gun to go off by itself. What you like is what counts. And don't even think about modifications until you've fired several hundred rounds at a minimum. In competition, there are rules. See examples below -

NRA Bullseye and Service pistol require the following minimum trigger pull weights:
.22 must have a least a 2 lb trigger
CF must have at least a 2.5 lb trigger
.45 must have at least a 3.5 lb trigger
Service pistol at least a 4 lb trigger

IPSC Production Class is minimum of 5 lb first shot.

 

My goal is a trigger that allows me to fire the gun without it moving off target.
With a heavy pull it is impossible to achieve that, you can't pull the trigger without moving the gun. When you are shooting an eight pound rifle ten pounds of force on the trigger has to move the gun.

From a bench, for example, we want the rifle to lay in the bags perfectly aimed and the trigger to fire the gun exactly where it is. No movement.
It is that simple.

Target shooters barely touch the rifle with their trigger hand, the finger should pull the trigger back straight in-line with no side movement.

I own two Glocks, a G20 and a G40 and couldn't stand the standard triggers. Got lucky and found a sale on Timney triggers, replaced both and they went from around 7lbs to under 4. Still not the best feel but acceptable.
Got a lot of different 10/22 triggers, from stock to BX to hammer kits to a Jard Ultra Match that is fantastically perfect at 1lb 4oz.

I like a hunting rifle at less than 4lbs and target guns at less than 2.
In my ARs I have a Ruger 452 at 3lb 6oz, a LaRue MBT-2S at the same 3lb 6oz (both excellent BTW) and a Rise RA-240 right at 4lb.

Unlike some shooters, I expect to have to mod or replace the trigger on any new gun and don't mind having to do so. I want the gun to fit me and my uses perfectly.

 

I guess that y’all have never had a SA revolver worked on by Alan Harton, or the question wouldn’t need an answer. I don’t want any glitchy, creepy, icky trigger pulls on any firearm I own. When I buy an AR the first thing I do is drop a Timney or CMC trigger group in it. My SA revolvers have all been slicked up by Alan Harton. Double actions, of which I have very few, usually have a good trigger pull. Most bolt action rifles usually do too. I’m not willing to settle !

 

CMC makes an excellent AR trigger pack.

 

I think for me light triggers of the 2lb or so I use to gain a better group at distance, for precision work, as with long guns any little movement can.make you go from a perfect .500" to 1.5" or worse. Biggest thing to consider is that small movement equates alot at say 1000 yards or further. So on precision guns I like it low. Now in pistols I perfer 4 to 5.5 pounds since I'm bot shooting far, mostly 25 to 50 yards max. Also using irons not a 24 power scope. Different purposes. My match rifles dcm are 3.5 to 4.5 lbs.

However I do not like 10 pound triggers, I dont like the feel of a cinder block dragging on a concrete driveway either, smooth crisp with a predictable break. I also do not care for triggers if you breath on them they go off, so I'm somewhere in the middle.

I have always heard the shot should surprise you, however to me it works better when I know when it will break a smooth pull, a wall, and then break, alot of times I push it up to the wall, then make it break when I'm ready. But that's just me.

Biggest thing is purpose, on an M2 it doesnt matter being a suppressive weapon, or 240, your amount of lead down range is your goal. But with an cheytac intervention at 1500 yards only 1 shot counts it's more required.

 

I think for me light triggers of the 2lb or so I use to gain a better group at distance, for precision work, as with long guns any little movement can.make you go from a perfect .500" to 1.5" or worse. Biggest thing to consider is that small movement equates alot at say 1000 yards or further. So on precision guns I like it low. Now in pistols I perfer 4 to 5.5 pounds since I'm bot shooting far, mostly 25 to 50 yards max. Also using irons not a 24 power scope. Different purposes. My match rifles dcm are 3.5 to 4.5 lbs.

However I do not like 10 pound triggers, I dont like the feel of a cinder block dragging on a concrete driveway either, smooth crisp with a predictable break. I also do not care for triggers if you breath on them they go off, so I'm somewhere in the middle.

I have always heard the shot should surprise you, however to me it works better when I know when it will break a smooth pull, a wall, and then break, alot of times I push it up to the wall, then make it break when I'm ready. But that's just me.

Biggest thing is purpose, on an M2 it doesnt matter being a suppressive weapon, or 240, your amount of lead down range is your goal. But with an cheytac intervention at 1500 yards only 1 shot counts it's more required.

A defensive weapon is not much kin to a Single Action revolver, which is what I shoot the most. My carry guns are all
semi-autos with decent triggers in the 4/5 lb. range I’m sure. They are probably going to be used at ranges from powder burned to twenty to thirty feet in all probability. For that distance they are fine and they need to be what they are for safety’s sake. I can deal with that, but no safeties on my carry guns. SAs need not have a hard or glitchy trigger pull, at least mine won’t. It’s hard enough to hit where you aim at 50/100 yards with a heavy recoiling handgun, so you need all the advantages possible. I only shoot paper to confirm zero, everything else I hope to kill.

 

I don't own any rifles or handguns that haven't had something done to improve the trigger. Can't stand rough or creep. Or too heavy.

 

I agree!