I may be venturing outside of my comfort zone here, since I've never been much into ballistics. But I feel fairly safe in saying that the 9mm +p+ loads do indeed approach .357 Sig territory. Stopping power can be a complicated issue. Shot placement counts for a lot, but caliber aside, there are no guarantees when it comes to stopping a lethal assault with a handgun...any handgun. When it comes to autos though, I prefer the .45 to a 9, all day, every day....but I also wouldn't wanna get shot with a 9, a .38, or anything else, either. I do carry a .357 magnum when off duty, a GP-100. BUT, that's only because I can't find night sights for my 4" Redhawk .45 Colt!

 

I wouldn't wanna get shot with a 9, a .38, or anything else, either.

I agree, in fact this is my argument every time the "this round is better than that round" comes up. My best buddy says that his 45acp is better than my 9mm because of the power it has, and as far as power, of course he's right. As far as round capacity, my 17 is better than his 8. I once offered a test. He runs while I shoot a mag at him, then we switch. My test, so I shoot first. That was several years ago and I'm still awaiting my turn.

In a discussion about the 5.56 a guy said,"the 5.56 is a great round and if you don't think so stand out there and I'll lob some at you". I say, by that logic why does our military not use the 22lr? I won't catch those either.

It all boils done to what you like. Example, my mom doesn't like a 357mag because of the recoil, she uses a 9mm.

 

I know the Va State Police are using the .357 sig now a days. Before that it was the 9mm.
City of Norfolk police back in 1995 when my dad retired, they used 9mm with a .38 as a backup.
Everybody has their opinions. Alot of people feel a .380 isn't good enough. IMO any handgun in any cailber is better than no handgun at all. I feel comfortable carring my .380!

 

True. My dept went from a 9mm to a 40sw to a 357 Sig. I don't see that much difference between the latter two.
Yes shot placement is the best stopper and a pistol is always a poor substitute for a rifle or shotgun. The late Bill Jordan once said a pistol was just a means to get to a rifle or shotgun.
I was only saying in my opinion, the 9mm with today's load gets a bum rap.

 

Don't feel too bad on this. The 9mm has a somewhat bad legacy to contend with. Massad Ayoob has said that this comes mainly from the days when the primary load available in the caliber was 115 grain ball, which he says tends to make a "narrow wound channel, like an ice pick", often causing little to no discernible effect when used against armed attackers. However, he's also said that today's top defensive JHP loads for the 9mm are excellent, and that real-world results [LE shootings] support this.

 

I carry 38 Spl +P from Buffalo Bore and they chrony an actual 1037 FPS out of my SP101 and 1017 FPS out of my LCR with a 158 gr LSWC-HP/GC. The top number figures 377 ft/lbs energy and a momentum of 23. I feel that is quite adequate for my carry piece as all I am trying to do in a defensive situation is stop the threat until I/we can get away or if home until LEO's arrive.

You need to carry what you are comfortable with, believe in and are accurate with. The main thing is to carry something you have put a lot of rounds downrange with. I like 38 Spl/357 Mag revolvers. If you like something different then practice until you are good with it and don't look back.

 

I always wondered why people put the .38 down when they love the 9mm? Of course most people don't realize one is a .357 bullet and the other is .355. I have a .357 revolver and can load a .38 to do anything a 9mm can do. None the less both fine rounds that have stood the test of time!

 

Left Twix vs. Right Twix.......

So I guess the 22 cal bullet out of an AR is underpowered.......

A gun that you can shoot very accurately and blends into your body (becomes second nature to shoot say 20 rounds through) is a great gun.

A gun that you can not shoot accurately is but a stone or a club.

There are no hand guns that are 100% guaranteed stoping power without reasonable placement.

Learn to shoot accurately, reload and learn to shoot more accurately, reload and repeat.

Look up the 22TCM is you want to see a cool hand gun load.

 

Put bullet in gun (your choice of gun, bullet, caliber)
Obtain proper sight picture
Shoot to stop the threat, move your feet, never be an easy target

Great to have these debates, I have not had to shoot to stop the threat, forced to put la round or three into another man's or woman's chest to defend my life or my family's lives. God help me the day it may happen.

My thoughts on the matter; one needs to be competent with their SD weapon. Train heavy with it. Do not be gun a moth kind of CCW person who switches up time and time again.

I've read, been told and believe shot placement is everything and never stand still and shoot. Move Move Move, center mass shots every time.

YOU pick your caliber, gun and type of ammo. Stick with it.

Thank God every night for your blessings and be grateful every morning He gives us a new day every morning.

 

Who do you know who says that? I usually hear the opposite. I think a .38 has an advantage in that there is a wider range of bullet weights available. 9mm has an advantage in that there are many quality defensive/LE loads for sale, and usually for less money.

Saying you can load 9mm to .357 SIG loads, though, seems irrelevant. It would be (probably well) outside even +P loadings, or some odd configuration like a 1" .357 barrel. And you'd need a firearm robust enough to handle it. You could load .38 Special up to .357 Magnum levels if you apply the same disclaimers (don't care about defined pressure, have a gun that can handle it, etc).

You mentioned the FBI loading, though. My guess is the kind of people who tout the "FBI load" while dismissing 9mm's just don't like change. I'm not trying to suggest a lead SWC is ineffective, it'll kill people now just like it did then. But there have been lots of advancements in bullet design (for all calibers). Probably the most obvious counter is that the FBI no longer uses the "FBI load" 158gr SWC.

Interestingly, the .38 Special and the 9mm Parabellum were designed within about 3 years of each other. And the 9mm is older than any of the "crusty old guys" that dismiss it in favor of the "tried and true" .38 +P.

 

I have read and heard many deride the 9mm, especially after the 40sw came out. Interestingly it seems to making somewhat of a come back lately. Most LEO's regard it as a back up gun in small pistols it seems these days. I was simply making an observation and believe as most either of the two are deadly with good shot placement. You are correct in that it would take a +p+ load to come close to a 357 Sig but those loads are out there for non LEO's if you want them. Some such a friend I have believe you need a +p in .45. I don't. I think the standard loading are good enough. In 9mm I do prefer corbon or Geogia Arms +p's but then again I don't carry a 9mm much as the Dept. issue now is a glock 357 sig. They went from a 40 to a Sig 357.I carry a Glock 32 for conceal off duty(moist of the time, sometimes my old g23) but shoot others like Rugers for fun.

 

Well it gives us something to talk & argue about????? grin grin.
Actually either with proper ammo will save your bacon!
Oh I forgot to add proper shot placement!

 

9mm will do the job, just ask George.

 

Exactly.

Zimmerman used a KelTec PF9 with S&B 115g HP if I remember correctly from the report. One shot stop on a young apparently healthy male. Of course it was not a long shot.

S&B is not what I consider to be a high quality SD round when compared to the many other choices that are available.

Looks to me like George chose the S&B for economics which could also be said about the pistol of choice but together they seemed to work OK.

 

YouTube is full of "Experts" shooting jello...so. Kinda remember this guy using a little neuro disruptor to end a bad situation.

~D

 

There is no correct answer in caliber wars. Someone always says I wouldn't want to get shot with whatever caliber they are pushing. I personally wouldn't volunteer to stand in front of a seven year old girl throwing rocks. My philosophy is carry the best gun you can afford in the most caliber you can control with the most capacity you will carry every day. Also carry for the worst potential threat in your travels whether it is a human, a coyote, a wolf, a grizzly bear, or a pissed off moose.

I carry a government size 1911 in .45 ACP or 10mm with one spare magazine as my primary urban carry handgun. I also carry either a Sig P938 9mm or a Springfield Armory XDs-45 as a pocket BUG with a spare magazine. For rural carry, I often carry a Glock G20 SF 10mm or an FNH FNX-45 with fifteen plus one capacity and two spare magazines. For woods carry, I often carry my 4" S&W 29-2 .44 magnum with two speed loaders.

 

I shoot both and would take either one if needed. I prefer revolvers to semi auto and shoot more .38 and .357 mag than anything else.

 

I have an ignorant newbie question. Given that 9mm bullets are roughly the same diameter as .38, but that the casing of a 38 is HUGE compared with a 9mm, why are they similar? Is it because there is "hotter" powder in the 9mm case? Is it that the .38 case is not "full" of powder? Is it that in pistols (with their short barrels) that all of the powder charge in a .38 can't be burned?

Interesting in that 9 mm hit about the same place as .38+P in my 6" Blackhawk (12 yards). I haven't chono'd anything.

Thanks in advance for some help understanding this

 

The 9mm is loaded to a lot higher pressure than a standard 38 Special.

With todays improved ammo there is little difference between the two. I use a Glock 26 with CorBon 115 gr ammo. I would be happy with a 38 Special with similar bullet/velocity.
The G26 has more shots. But the revolver should be adequate.

 

You got a lot of answers, but I think the real answer is, a lot of folks like a revolver better than a semi-auto. If you ever need a gun, the revolver will always go BANG!

 

64Chevy
Ironhead is right. The 38 special case is longer than necessary because the first loading if I remember my gun history correctly was black powder and when smokeless propellant started to be used in it, it had more case than necessary. I believe the name for 38 was from the original grains of powder. The caliber is .357 not 38. Same with a 45lc. The old black powder loads filled the case. The new powders except for trail boss don't.

 

My understanding is that the subsonic .38+P will penetrate deeper than a 9mm with a higher velocity. I'm not sure of all the details here, but with penetration being second to shot placement...there's definitely a point to be made here!

With regards to a 9mm 'approaching' the .357SIG caliber...the closest in energy production at impact that I've ever read about is maybe 75% of the .357SIG caliber...if you're lucky! While I will agree that foot-lbs of energy expended, as compared to a .45 round, may be similar, however, when up close & personal 'bigger is always gonna be better' in my opinion!

That all being said, the last 3 individuals shot and killed by our local 'bigger city' PD, using 9mm ammo, were all shot once and pronounced dead at the scene...whereas our local 'small town' PD had an officer who shot a guy twice in the chest with a .45 at a distance of 5-6'...after he pulled a gun on the officer...and that guy lived to sue the crap out of them!

While I prefer the .357SIG (or even better, the .357 Mag round), and I do have a .45 for personal defense...I currently carry 9mm. Why? Because my wife can handle it well...and I feel it's important that we carry the same caliber / magazine when out-&-about! Her loads are 115 grain JHP +P's...and mine are 124 grain JHP +P+'s! While the +P+'s don't match up with a .357SIG in head-2-head comparison, I'm comfortable enough with their performance to carry them! Most importantly, they hit right where the muzzle is pointed...and that is still the #1 concern with regards to self-defense!

 

Any of them are gonna leave a heck of a mark! the funny thing is 115 years after the .38 sp and 112 years after the 9mm came out and it's still being discussed!

 

the funny thing is 115 years after the .38 sp and 112 years after the 9mm came out and it's still being discussed!

good point

 

Your could churn up what might be called a low recoiling 357 by doing what you describe if you don't want the pounding of full house 357 magnums. I have assembled such loads many times using Unique powder. Yes you can assemble a 38 125gr load that would out perform most 124 gr 9mm and still not recoil as much as full house 357 magnums. If your gun is a 357, it will surely take hot 38's.

 

I'll be anxious to try that. This thread makes me wonder why there aren't more 9mm revolvers (especially small lightweight DA carry guns). I understand there are some extraction issues, but apparently Ruger and S&W used to make revolvers for 9mm, and some others (Karr, Charter) apparently still do. It would seem like with the huge adoption of 9mm semi-autos that a 9mm wheelgun would have a great market (given the thinking that a revolver may be the best self defense pistol for someone who is less than super comfortable around firearms).

 

I carry a 9mm pistol E D C and have a 9 mm rifle in one car. And she carries a 38 sp EDC and a 357 carbine in her car. It's nice to carry ammo that is interchangeable with the rifle

 

Just recently, an old man defended himself with a .22lr if I'm not mistaken. Well-placed shots to the head of two BGs proved fatal (sadly, one of the dead BGs was his estranged daughter).

After reading that news, I'm convinced that 9mm is adequate---I just need to practice more.

 

An Excerpt From Ballistics101.com

"A LOOK AT THE FACTS
Lets clear this up first and foremost. The 9mm is not puny. Compared to a 50 Cal.? Sure, but compared to a .38 Special? Nope. The .38 Special and 9mm are the same size bullet as far as I am concerned. Yes, the same size. They are within two thousandths of an inch of each other. The .38 Special measures .357" in diameter. The 9mm measures .355" in diameter. The slight difference in diameter is not relevant to any degree worth debating.

The .38 Special was introduced in 1898, and began as a Black powder round. Black powder is not a very efficient propellant, it is actually classified as an explosive. Because of the impurities in Black Powder it is slower burning, and less efficient. Much of the powder is wasted upon explosion, therefore more powder is needed to propel the projectile. Thus the longer case length of the 38 special. Within a year, after its debut, smokeless powders were introduced and used in the .38 Special. The maximum pressure for a standard load is 17,000PSI. Standard +P loading would be around 20,000PSI. Common weights for the .38 Special round will vary from about 110 to 158 Grains. The height of a loaded cartridge is 1.55 inches (39 mm).

The 9mm round was introduced in 1902 by George Luger. Thus the term 9mm Luger. Which is also known as 9mm Parabellum or 9x19. This cartridge was designed to use the more volatile, higher pressure smokeless powder, thus the shorter case length. The maximum pressure for a standard load is 35,000PSI. Standard +P loading would be around 38,500PSI. Common weights for the round will vary from about 115 to 147 Grains. The height of a loaded cartridge is 1.169 inches (29.69 mm)."

Here's the link to the complete comparison including ballistics. 9mm vs 38 Special | Ballistics 101

 

Thank you Quiet1 for posting that information. Folks who are new to reloading or even contemplating reloading would do well to learn this information, especially if wanting to reload .38 spcl or .357 magnum.

The ballistics of 38 spcl vs 9mm are identical but the difference is higher capacity with a 9mm. Even the first Luger pistol held a few more rounds than a full size .38 revolver. Consider today's offerings...8 shot 357/38 revolver vs 17+1 in an SR9.
If I find myself in a SD situation with only 1 BG, I'd feel completely confident with my SP but add 2 more BG and I'd want nothing less than my SR9c with full size mag. Unfortunately we don't get to pick and choose.

 

This stuff can be debated endlessly.

I carry a full size, steel 1911 and a 2" J-frame revolver as backup, not because of pseudo science or junk statistics, but because I shoot them damn well.