Ruger Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
21 - 40 of 76 Posts
Discussion starter · #23 ·
Ya we don't see many bear here in Alaska and thats why many carry a 357 loaded hot or a 10mm. Some how when the 357 was the stoutest pistol you could buy they did good service on bears ,brown or black. Like I said not many bears here so my info on what works is probably off. Also like I stated the Vaquero would not be first choice for hot loads.
I'm not trying to start a fight, but I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not, I thought Alaska was full of bears?
 
Ya we don't see many bear here in Alaska and thats why many carry a 357 loaded hot or a 10mm. Some how when the 357 was the stoutest pistol you could buy they did good service on bears ,brown or black. Like I said not many bears here so my info on what works is probably off. Also like I stated the Vaquero would not be first choice for hot loads.
Cm'on Will, I had a friend who's uncle's brother went on vacation in Alaska- he saw lots of bears and said a 44 Mag is minimum. The guide from Oregon said so.

;)
 
Ya we don't see many bear here in Alaska and thats why many carry a 357 loaded hot or a 10mm. Some how when the 357 was the stoutest pistol you could buy they did good service on bears ,brown or black. Like I said not many bears here so my info on what works is probably off. Also like I stated the Vaquero would not be first choice for hot loads.

Interesting. I haven't spent much time in Southeast Alaska, so I wouldn't know about the bear "situation" there. Even in the area around Anchorage and down the Kenai peninsula you don't see too many bears (unless you're fishing), but you don't have to see more than one in your lifetime to need a "bear gun". When I was living in Anchorage, we had at least one person killed every summer in a bear attack (and at least one stomped to death by moose in the winter).
 
Save
Btw jim, my post in jest wasn't aimed at you, fishing guides from Oregon are just an easy target ;)

SE AK has probably more bears than southcentral. Prince of Wales island is known for blacks, and Admiralty island has more browns per square mile than anywhere on earth.
 
I guess I'll be serious here, and give some info for what it's worth. Take it for what you paid for it. I've never shot a charging bear with a handgun. I've taken a Black with a .308, and was the backup shot on a Brown with a 35 Whelen. I've been bluff charged by a brown once, and scared several blacks away from me in the course of my day to day activities.

First thing to avoid a bad encounter with a bear, is understanding their behavior. (actually, the most foolproof way to avoid a bear is to have a bear tag, and it be in season)

1st- Brown Bears:

They VERY rarely see humans as food- only one case I can think of. They avoid humans if they know we are around. The two most common causes of Brown bear attacks are surprising the bear while it is close, and it feels threatened, and a sow protecting her cubs. When in brown bear country, pay attention to the wind, and make noise. I probably look silly, but I talk, whistle, or sing when walking alone where I know brown bears to be. Occasionally, I hear rustling running away from me. I keep my head on a swivel, and stop often to listen. I've seen cubs before, they make noise. I slowly backed up, and went back the way I came.

When attacked by a Brown bear, they are usually only attacking because they feel threatened. Don't scream, curl up in the fetal position, and don't fight back. They will eventually leave (my former Commanding Officer was attacked by a brown while checking his trap line 2 years ago- he did exactly this, and ended up mauled, but alive).

2nd- Black bears:

Black bears are usually very skittish, and will run at the sign of a human (unless they are acclimated to humans). They are, however, curious. They are known to follow hikers down the trail following the scent. Due to this, encounters may be more likely. They tend not to be as protective of their space as Brown bears. However, if a Black Bear is attacking you, he likely sees you as food. Fight back in any way possible (poke eyes, punch snout, etc). A black is less likely to give up until you are bear feces.


Killing them:

Weight of an animal means nothing. An 800 lb moose is very easy to kill. A 100 lb wolverine is not.

A brown bear has very thick fur and skin. Especially when wet, Brown bear fur can slow a bullet down a lot. When choosing a weapon to shoot a brown bear (in defense), you must choose a cartridge that can reach the central nervous system. A bear with a broken shoulder will still kill you. A bear with an exploded heart will still kill you- even if it dies shortly afterwords. Bears have a slow metabolism, and can still function after their lungs and heart stop working for a few minutes. Plenty long enough to still kill you.

Momentum is what reaches the CNS of a bear. Not energy. A heavy for caliber, wide meplat (flat nose) hard cast lead penetrates the deepest and straightest. Since you are aiming for the brain or spinal cord, accuracy is a must. Choose the biggest gun that you can hit a basketball bouncing at you at 35 mph. That caliber is different for all people. For me, I carry a 4" Redhawk in 45 Colt, loaded with 320 gr LFN cast going 1200 fps. This is a tier 3 handload. Some people are more competent with 10mm Glock 20's and some with 454 Casull or bigger.

A Black bear is a relatively thin skinned animal. It does not take as much momentum to reach the CNS of a Black bear. If you feel comfortable shooting a deer with it, it's probably ok for a black bear.

First and foremost is your ability to hit where you are aiming, and to have ready access to your weapon. If it is more then 1-2 seconds from going bang, you might as well not have it. Most bear encounters are that fast.
 
Discussion starter · #29 ·
Wouldn't the .357 even with it's lighter weight penetrate further than a big slower moving .45 LC, both with standard loadings.
I know you guys think I'm "just not listening toy you", but that's not true at all. The truth is I am already getting this gun, the caliber is the only thing that's still up in the air here. This will be my most powerful handgun in my collection so far, and I don't have the finances to go buy multiple firearms and many different types of ammo, nor do I have the finances for reloading right now. I want something that is fun to shoot, great for self defense, and a caliber (one of the two) that can handle this "bear" job better than the other. I'm not looking for an end all caliber just one that has versatility.

Most of our bears are blacks, I'm really more likely to come across a hog than a bear, or crazy people than either of those other two. Like I said, I've been walking these woods my whole life and never crossed a bear, most of the time when I was much younger and only armed with a .22 once I was old enough to be trusted alone with one, before that I had a pocket knife and a stick. There are many people who live north of me by 100 miles in much heavier bear country than here, who have lived there for 40 years and besides friends stories, they don't believe there are really bears here because they have never seen one themselves. I'm not that oblivious dispite my usual "show me or your making it up" attitude to begin with.

One day I will probably get a "Bear Gun" strictly for protection, right now I'm looking for a do all within the parameters I described in my first post. My next gun may well be a leaver action in a matching caliber. After that I have four other handguns that will take me probably two years to acquire, then I can focus on a bigger gun even though it will probably spend 99% of it's life in the safe.
 
Wouldn't the .357 even with it's lighter weight penetrate further than a big slower moving .45 LC, both with standard loadings.
I know you guys think I'm "just not listening toy you", but that's not true at all. The truth is I am already getting this gun, the caliber is the only thing that's still up in the air here. This will be my most powerful handgun in my collection so far, and I don't have the finances to go buy multiple firearms and many different types of ammo, nor do I have the finances for reloading right now. I want something that is fun to shoot, great for self defense, and a caliber (one of the two) that can handle this "bear" job better than the other. I'm not looking for an end all caliber just one that has versatility.

Most of our bears are blacks, I'm really more likely to come across a hog than a bear, or crazy people than either of those other two. Like I said, I've been walking these woods my whole life and never crossed a bear, most of the time when I was much younger and only armed with a .22 once I was old enough to be trusted alone with one, before that I had a pocket knife and a stick. There are many people who live north of me by 100 miles in much heavier bear country than here, who have lived there for 40 years and besides friends stories, they don't believe there are really bears here because they have never seen one themselves. I'm not that oblivious dispite my usual "show me or your making it up" attitude to begin with.

One day I will probably get a "Bear Gun" strictly for protection, right now I'm looking for a do all within the parameters I described in my first post. My next gun may well be a leaver action in a matching caliber. After that I have four other handguns that will take me probably two years to acquire, then I can focus on a bigger gun even though it will probably spend 99% of it's life in the safe.

My first post in this thread stands. If you do not reload, the 357 is more practical. It will probably get shot more, as ammo is more plentiful and in the appropriate loading for your chosen Vaquero.

As far as weight and penetration, I've never tested heavy 45 Colt (standard pressure) vs 357. The concept of momentum is that a freight train moving 5 mph will go farther through a barrier than a motorcycle going 180 mph, even if the math says the motorcycle has more energy.
 
Why not just buy the most powerful Vaquero made, an original model in .44 Magnum and pray you get off a good shot or two. Your not shooting for steaks, your shooting for your life.
 
Save
Hitting the target in the center of the ten ring is the most important part. Next would be quality of bullet to punch deep holes and then the cartridge you can handle best to send the bullet on its way. My wife shoots a S&W 19 with a 6" barrel nuts on with the 180 Buffalo Bore and I'm not worried about her hunting without me by her side,her rifle is also 357 max down to 38spec. As I age I'm moving backward in caliber and I'm back to 44mag now and only hunt with revolvers. If the Vaquero can use the blackhawk type max ammo I would go with the 45 which recoil wise is like the 44 mostly. If thats to much to hit center of ten ring go 357. Best first shots in my experience are through both shoulders or spine. I consider a charging bear one still coming at twenty five yards or starts from that distance,everything else is watch and see. My main back pocket walk in the woods gun is a charter arms 44spec and feel fine with it but I don't us it to hunt bears on purpose. The heavier for caliber bullet you can shoot the better off you are,momentum is your friend.
 
Ok I have briefly browsed thru this thread now a ? For the OP arenyou planning on just hiking around your neck of the woods I think younsaid Arksnsas? If so the .357 magnum is all that you will need. Now I have the larger framed Ruger Vaquero Bisley .357 with a 5.5 barrel I really love this gun I like this size much more then the smaller New Vaquero. Why is it you have to get a Vaquero? Reason I ask is a Ruger Super Blackhawk in .357 will have the larger stronger frame. I mention the Super Blackhawk over the Vaquero because of the rudimentary simple sights on a Vaquero. If you want a hunting gun is my reasoning the SBH has better sights. But maybe you are good with the fixed sights on a Vaquero. If you don't mind using a FFL gun dealer I know right now where there is a gun just like mine comes complete with the Ruger Box. It's a Ruger Vaquero Bisley it looks virtually new same barrel length as my gun. Send me a PM & I can direct you to where the gun is I can get you a phone # I have shot some very very stout .357 magnum loads thru my gun. It handles these loads with ease the Bisley Grip tames down the recoil. But some guys like it & some don't another good option is a Ruger Bisley Super Blackhawk Hunter model that comes it .357 & .44 magnum. Good Luck!
 
Discussion starter · #34 ·
Good point about the Train v.s. Motorcycle. Another reason I thought the .357 might have more punch was because of stories of why the .357 came about. Back in the early 1900's cops used to carry .38's which had trouble penetrating heavy steel and stopping cars, the .357 mag was great at not only going through car bodies to hit passengers, but they were also capable of piercing the engine blocks. The .357 was issued all the way up until modern semi autos came about, some departments still used them and very few still do, but some. Now that has no bearing on the .45 LC, but does show that the .357 mag was capable of great penetration. Going back to the train vs motorcycle, knockdown power is great, but if you can't make it to any vitals then I dont know if it will do much good, so I was thinking penetration would be important in this scenario. If you are shooting at the face as in the nose, mouth, eyes (most likely in a full charge) then I doubt caliber will matter much although the .45 LC would probably do more soft tissue damage.

From what all but a few of you are saying, it's a crap shoot unless I go with a grizzly gun, so I may as well just pick one and hope for the best, at least it's not my 9mm right. I sincerely appreciate all of your time and concern with this delimma!

So let's say for argument that I decided to go with .357 mag or even the .45 LC, how do I know which loads are to hot from the factory to be shot out of the New Vaquero? Is it listed in the manual as well on a new box of ammo? last thing I want to do is blow a cylinder or worse! Please advise.
 
Discussion starter · #36 ·
Ok I have briefly browsed thru this thread now a ? For the OP arenyou planning on just hiking around your neck of the woods I think younsaid Arksnsas? If so the .357 magnum is all that you will need. Now I have the larger framed Ruger Vaquero Bisley .357 with a 5.5 barrel I really love this gun I like this size much more then the smaller New Vaquero. Why is it you have to get a Vaquero? Reason I ask is a Ruger Super Blackhawk in .357 will have the larger stronger frame. I mention the Super Blackhawk over the Vaquero because of the rudimentary simple sights on a Vaquero. If you want a hunting gun is my reasoning the SBH has better sights. But maybe you are good with the fixed sights on a Vaquero. If you don't mind using a FFL gun dealer I know right now where there is a gun just like mine comes complete with the Ruger Box. It's a Ruger Vaquero Bisley it looks virtually new same barrel length as my gun. Send me a PM & I can direct you to where the gun is I can get you a phone # I have shot some very very stout .357 magnum loads thru my gun. It handles these loads with ease the Bisley Grip tames down the recoil. But some guys like it & some don't another good option is a Ruger Bisley Super Blackhawk Hunter model that comes it .357 & .44 magnum. Good Luck!
Yes I'm generally talking hiking or while doing other types of hunting (hunting is rare for me) in Arkansas.
I don't really want adjustable sights on this one, I'm looking to get fixed sights on a traditional style SA cowboy gun is what I'm looking for now. If I went ask sights I would go double action and likely a S&W 686. I want to buy new and I've already got my eye on a couple of SS New Vaqueros which I will be installing a new Montado hammer to match my Birdshead. Thank you for the offer though. I must say this won't be my last Ruger, or SA, and I do want a blackhawk/SBH/SRH in the future, so all is not lost. :)

Ruger Stainless New Vaquero .357 4.62" barrel $589
Image
 
Good point about the Train v.s. Motorcycle. Another reason I thought the .357 might have more punch was because of stories of why the .357 came about. Back in the early 1900's cops used to carry .38's which had trouble penetrating heavy steel and stopping cars, the .357 mag was great at not only going through car bodies to hit passengers, but they were also capable of piercing the engine blocks. The .357 was issued all the way up until modern semi autos came about, some departments still used them and very few still do, but some. Now that has no bearing on the .45 LC, but does show that the .357 mag was capable of great penetration. Going back to the train vs motorcycle, knockdown power is great, but if you can't make it to any vitals then I dont know if it will do much good, so I was thinking penetration would be important in this scenario. If you are shooting at the face as in the nose, mouth, eyes (most likely in a full charge) then I doubt caliber will matter much although the .45 LC would probably do more soft tissue damage.

From what all but a few of you are saying, it's a crap shoot unless I go with a grizzly gun, so I may as well just pick one and hope for the best, at least it's not my 9mm right. I sincerely appreciate all of your time and concern with this delimma!

So let's say for argument that I decided to go with .357 mag or even the .45 LC, how do I know which loads are to hot from the factory to be shot out of the New Vaquero? Is it listed in the manual as well on a new box of ammo? last thing I want to do is blow a cylinder or worse! Please advise.
If a factory load generates higher than standard ("Ruger only") pressures, it will say so and it will say so very clearly. If you go to Buffalo Bore's site and look around you will find some heavy loads and their recommendations for what firearms will work.

I believe but am not 100% sure that the 357 Magnum going through an engine block is an urban legend. The 357 was indeed developed to increase penetration, but it was through things like car doors which were a pretty heavy gauge steel at the time.

Handguns for Protection in the Field
 
I'm looking at a Vaquero for my next purchase, in fact I want it so bad that it just jumped all my other guns on my must have list. I want this gun for paper and can decimation, but I also want to carry it while hiking in bear country and hogs are just as likely (other mean four legged critters and maybe a two legged if need be)....we are talking black/brown bear.
Most of our bears are blacks...
A bit confused here. Is this website inaccurate in saying ALL your bears are blacks? Arkansas Bears - Bears in Arkansas - Arkansas Wildlife

"Though relatively elusive, the American black bear - the only species of bear in Arkansas - ....."​

This is black bear American black bear - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is brown bear Brown bear - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

To make the terminology confusing there are brown colored black bears (and other shades as well) but they are all still black bears, maybe that is what you meant by black/brown bear? Just trying to get to the bottom of what critter we're talking about here because the two are very different in both size and behavior.
 
Save
He's buying the gun for fun and as a last resort maybe protection from a soft and cuddly Arkansas black bear. Under that criteria any handgun will do the job, even a 22. Not well, but it's better than throwing rocks. If you want to hunt bear there are better choices but for your stated purposes I'd get a 357 Vaquero.

I have Vaqueros in both 357 and 45 Colt and I enjoy shooting the 45 Colt the most. However, I reload and you do not. The price, variety and availability of 357 ammo is much better than 45 Colt. Plus, you can shoot cheap target 38 spl ammo from a 357. There's no such alternative for the 45 Colt. Around here you can buy a 100 round box of 38spl FMJ or wadcutters for about $35. Any box of 45 Colt is gonna be about $40 for 50.

Six rounds of hot 357 self defense ammo is adequate protection from a 200-250lb bear. Maybe not ideal, but more than adequate. Besides, every black bear I've ever seen in the lower 48 outside of a national park will go running as soon as they become aware of you, especially when you're trying to hunt the darn things. I know mama bear will protect her cubs, etc, etc but in general there's not a whole lot of aggressive bears running around the central part of the U.S.

Buy a gun for it's intended purpose, not for how it might, some day, given the right circumstances be used. If you buy too much gun for plinking and horsing around on the off chance you might run into an aggressive bear someday you won't enjoy using the gun for the other 99.9% of the time. Get the 357.
 
Save
21 - 40 of 76 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.